Thoughts On Kicks

[doncolga]

Hey all,

A friend of mine will be sitting in with me on acoustic drums this weekend. I'll be doing bass/keys and planning to run my T30 slims and OT12's. This is for an outdoors farmer's market and we don't want or need to get too loud. Just curious if you all though we'd be OK not miking any drums (seeing as we have none for that purpose anyway )

Any suggestions on helping an un-miked kit work?

Thanks!

Donny

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I always mic the drums, not for volume as much as for dispersion. You don't need a massive mic kit, but you need something. I use an omni-directional mic, placed to pick up the entire kit. Being omni-directional it won't go very loud before feeding back, but it doesn't need to.

[Hackomatic]

I agree with Bill' take . .especially outdoors. Now, depending on how far the drums need to carry, it's possible that the drummer can compensate by laying into them a bit more. Regardless, at the very minimum, I'd at least figure a way to get some sort of pickup on the snare and hi-hat.

[doncolga]

I always mic the drums, not for volume as much as for dispersion. You don't need a massive mic kit, but you need something. I use an omni-directional mic, placed to pick up the entire kit. Being omni-directional it won't go very loud before feeding back, but it doesn't need to.

Aha...now that I do have a mic for. I will give that a try. Much appreciated guys.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

it's possible that the drummer can compensate by laying into them a bit more.

-1. Drums are very odd in that up close they sound really loud, but they don't carry all that well. That's probably due to their omni-directional radiation. Just a smidge of drums in the PA, and everything else for that matter, really spreads the sound out to sound full without being loud.

[Bruce Weldy]

There are some cheap drum mic kits out there for about $200. They are actually pretty danged good. Digital reference makes a kit that has everything you need.

If you have a couple of mics, put one on kick and one centered in the middle of the kit a foot or so over the mounted tom facing toward the snare and hat. That will at least get some presence out there.

[Grant Bunter]

I'm with everyone who suggests to mike the drums, especially outdoors.
Most notably in the kick and toms department.

I did a gig very similar to this last night.
Acoustic guitar through PA, at about -5dB on the sliders, lead singers vocals on around -1dB on the sliders.

Kick and snare only.
Used my cheap bass drum mike from a kit (isk, but I don't think you guys get that brand in the States, so go with what Bruce suggested). For bass drum it needs to be a large diaghram mike to handle the SPL in the kick drum, so, even if you buy just one cheapo mike to get by (rather than a kit), make it a bass drum specific model.
Bass drum level was a dribble, at about -35dB on the slider. That was ample.

Snare is the the one drum that seems to carry way more than the rest of the kit. So I didn't bother miking that, but it was spilling into my vocal mike.

In your case, an single omni condensor will pick up all the toms, highhats, and cymbals for a nice bit of sizzle...

[doncolga]

Thanks again guys. I'm looking forward to this. I think most of you know that I usually self accompany with my own bass/drums tracks, so this will be nice to try out. This is a last minute volunteer gig I inquired about since my calendar was clear and just wanted to play. We've not played together and won't be practicing, so it will be totally on the fly. I believe it will go just fine.

[doncolga]

I'll be very carefully using this mic on a boom above the kit and roll it off at 40 or 60 Hz.

http://www.akg.com/C414+XLII-1039.html?pid=1023

Not expecting deep bass from the kit of course, but bass on keys will provide plenty of that, plus this will keep the bass and kick out each others way in the mix.

[Bruce Weldy]

I'll be very carefully using this mic on a boom above the kit.

http://www.akg.com/C414+XLII-1039.html?pid=1023

Not expecting deep bass from the kit of course, but bass on keys will provide plenty of that, plus this will keep the bass and kick out each others way in the mix.

Not one I'd use live. We've got two of these in the studio and have for years....but too expensive to take to the stage.

Bass and kick shouldn't be in each other's way. Bass for tone and kick for punch. They should work together.

[doncolga]

How about this?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Specs are omni and flat...seems that should do.

Would definitely be less risk and hassle.

[Bruce Weldy]

How about this?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Specs are omni and flat...seems that should do.

Would definitely be less risk and hassle.

That is a reference mic, not for stage use.

Personally, I'd never put an omni on a live stage - too much other stuff will creep into it. Maybe a quiet jazz setting, but that's about it for me.

Anything from an SM57 to a cheaper large diaphragm condenser, or even a small diaphragm condenser will work. Try it out with what you got - then decide if you want to go with close-micing everything or just a kick and OH configuration.

[doncolga]

How about this?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Specs are omni and flat...seems that should do.

Would definitely be less risk and hassle.

That is a reference mic, not for stage use.

Personally, I'd never put an omni on a live stage - too much other stuff will creep into it. Maybe a quiet jazz setting, but that's about it for me.

Anything from an SM57 to a cheaper large diaphragm condenser, or even a small diaphragm condenser will work. Try it out with what you got - then decide if you want to go with close-micing everything or just a kick and OH configuration.

LMAO! OK...I've got the AKG, the Behringer, 2 Shure SM 58's and 2 Shure Beta87A's. I won't sweat over it.

[Bruce Weldy]

How about this?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

Specs are omni and flat...seems that should do.

Would definitely be less risk and hassle.

That is a reference mic, not for stage use.

Personally, I'd never put an omni on a live stage - too much other stuff will creep into it. Maybe a quiet jazz setting, but that's about it for me.

Anything from an SM57 to a cheaper large diaphragm condenser, or even a small diaphragm condenser will work. Try it out with what you got - then decide if you want to go with close-micing everything or just a kick and OH configuration.

LMAO! OK...I've got the AKG, the Behringer, 2 Shure SM 58's and 2 Shure Beta87A's. I won't sweat over it.

Ha! I thought you were looking to buy some mics. I'd still leave the 414 at home. Put a 58 on the kick and a 58 over the rack toms pointing toward the snare....about 12-18 inches over the toms. Turn it up slowly til you start getting some presence and your ear moves toward the speakers instead of the drum kit. This might be all you need to pull this off. A better kick mic would be good, but a 58 will work if you don't try to overdo it.

[byacey]

I agree, keep the 414 safe. Dust and moisture are vile enemies of condenser mics, keep them in the studio.
If you can, get an RE-20 or PL-20 for the kick drum. These are meant for vocals, but they make for one of the finest kick mics you could ever want.

For a minimalist live setup, I would mic the kick, 57 on the snare, a small diaphragm condenser on the hat, and another SD condenser as an over head mic. This will give you enough control over the important elements of the drum kit.