I'm back and I'm woosing out. :)

[Tweakings]

Once again I am back!

I'm here hosting a Christmas party and I made a good connection with a shop keep down Yonge street. He's been operating for the past twenty five years. And we're discussing then once ... I get a job ... and pay back my VISA, I'm going to buy all the equipment my self, so next time I throw another party, I won't have to rent as much equipment.

So, the equipment which he bought for me, but since it was a few days before Christmas, we couldn't travel to my drop in centre with were two Cervin Vega CVA 28X satellite speakers

http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/pow ... va-28.html

And a Cervin Vega CV 18
http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/pow ... a-118.html

I don't know why, if he wanted to get "the best," which he said he would (heh, that brings back memories, eh, sine143? ) that he didn't get

The CV-121
http://www.cerwinvega.com/pro-audio/pow ... a-121.html

oh well ... we couldn't lug it back so we went for the Mackie's ... two 350's
http://www.mackie.com/products/srmv2series/splash.html
(because it was a 12' by 14.5' room!!!)

and I think either the DLM 12 or the DLM 8
http://www.mackie.com/products/dlmseries/lineup/

.... and now the questions ... I don't know if I'll ever get someone to build the Tuba60's and DR280's ... my buddy who saved my life in the summer whose doing who knows what back in the place where we met is too far off, even if he would be a carpenter's apprentice, I don't think it'll work 'cause it's way too far. And the other man, the shop teacher and I don't talk all that much, so, although it would be a pretty good shop project for the school in the inner city (a second chance school), it would be pretty tough to get in touch with him to do something with the students.

So, I'm thinking buying powered amplifiers would do the trick. I'm not sure if this an appropriate place to hand out speaker advice, if this forum is not the right place, could someone reach me through private message? but the guy who owns the store is willing the sell the CVA-28X plus two CVA 118'' for 2100CDN; or two DLMS 12'' for 2000CDN or 2DLM8'' for 2600CDN.

I don't know the speakers out on the market, period. The record store that's the most reputable and this store too which beats out all competition carries and rents out Mackie as standard. If someone could share their wisdom as to powered amplifiers ...

What do you recommend? Company, product; satellites, subs (make and model). He said two off the Mackie subs would do for 1,000 people. For an oldschool jungle, drum and bass party or techno trance, or techno rave, or oldskool breakbeat hardcore .... etc. etc. etc. where people "feel the music," i.e. touching and rattling on and in their bodies.... what would your recommend for 500 people, or more ... like a thousand the shop keep said? Played outside, maybe for "Canada Day" under fireworks or something?!?!

p.s. Also got a cool lcd, fog, and laser, and two led black light panels from the guy ... people were impressed. They liked to party. All had a good time And the director of the Foundation said it planted a "seed of hope," and that it will grow. woohoo!!!

[byacey]

I'm sorry, but I am completely lost by the second sentence. What are you trying to accomplish?

[Grant Bunter]

Hi Tweakings

byacey,
let me fill you in.
Tweakings is a theologian who came here a while back to discuss adequate PA for youth with a proviso that the low end could be felt. The "felt" was most important. Experiential you might say.
Crowd size 1000 being end goal, but starting with 200ish
IIRC the original recommendation was a pair of T60 and a pair of DR280's, adding pairs of each as required.

Tweakings,
Your figures are saying a minimum of $2100CAN for 4 cabs.
I don't think the cabs you've mentioned will do the job you require.
So best left at that for the moment...

[jimbo7]

This is more confusing than Harley's cricket thread

[Charles Jenkinson]

I'm sorry, but I am completely lost by the second sentence.

He is saying he met a shop keeper on Yonge street.

Hi Tweakings,
It is clear you are a visionary with lots of ideas and energy, and have the ability to enthuse others as well. Crystallise what you want to do, write it down, and share it with people who have the skills you don't have. If its on their heart too, they will get on board. If it includes BFM equipment, then that's what is required - at this point I'm not convinced you are the person to practically put that together, but you have the vision and fire in your bones, remember!

Best regards,

Charles

[byacey]

Thanks for the background info; I think I understand where he's going now.

This is a considerable investment to make, so I would caution against making any hasty decisions. Make sure that whatever you settle on buying or building is going to be adequate for your present and future needs. Be wary of salesmen trying to steer you in any particular direction. In most cases they are looking for the best way to separate you from your money.

Nothing worse than spending a pile of money only to discover the purchases were a poor fit, and then having to spend yet more money to correct the problem.

Not easy to find, but I would look for someone in the professional sound production business that isn't hung up on brand name prejudice and seek their candid advice.

[dswpro]

I know some local DJ companies who are enjoying the QSC K8 / Ksub Powered Speaker Package. ($2350.00 US at Guitar Center) if you need to buy a powered system quickly. It won't do a thousand people, neither will anything you've mentioned here, but you can always double up later.

If you are on a tighter budget and timeline I have also used the B52 Matrix 1000 system. I used to own two of them. Again one system will do DJ or live sound respectably for 200 people, double it up to serve more. (About $1000.00 US but second hand for 500-600 usually on craigslist or eBay) The powered sub in each case is a bit heavy to move but doable by a single person.

None of these speakers, however come anywhere close to my BFM Titan 39's and Otop 12's (I have four each) as far as efficiency, clear sound, price/performance and projection go.

Don Sullivan
Cleveland Ohio

[Tweakings]

Not easy to find, but I would look for someone in the professional sound production business that isn't hung up on brand name prejudice and seek their candid advice.

That's why I'm turning to you guys ... I'm not sure if that's appropriate, but I think you're all really a good crew.

I had a sense that this shop clerk on Yonge street (thanks for the clarification ... it's kind of hard to type in a Korean computer cafe with music which grating to your nerves, just like now, but I'm in the drop in and hearing a man playing guitar and singing) ... the shop clerk wants cash and he promises much and he directs the way he wants the transactions.

I'm docile by nature, and easy going, so it's hard to make "business transactions," without feeling a bit cheated, though I think I know how to reach people's consciences by speaking of "trust," which I think if you extend, they'll return if you reinforce the theme. Which is what I did with the shop clerk since day one, sincerely.

Nevertheless, the equipment (links above) is what he's wanting to sell to me.

I need some points of clarification.
The audio guy said some things which make me wonder ....

The DR280, because they are slanted in, create mud where the waves cross over. Is this true?

He said digital is better than analogue because they can fit into smaller cars and still let loose the same amount of power (the shop clerk said these subs do 2,000 watts) and that Mackie's can fall down two flights of stairs and still work while wooden bins like Bill's reverberate getting rid of good sound.

He chuckled at the size of the Tuba60 and said compare it to the Mackie subs which are much smaller and sturdier can do a better job.

I don't believe it!

All crew, what do you say?

DSWPro, my apologies, but I can't purchase more audio gear until I start to work and pay back credit; so far it's just me on this project. I might actually get a job soon, in fact, I have an interview on Monday for a security firm for the homeless shelters across Toronto.

[Charles Jenkinson]

I'll let others comment on the audio aspects, but for now, this (I.e YOUR) relationship with the Korean shop keeper is twisting my melons. In the first post you imply he has bought equipment on your behalf, and now there is the implication that you are going To buy it from him, with cash, according to his terms. please can you confirm this? It's 1am and I'm going to bed. ....We can pick up later today, but I think what I'm getting at is the deep shit alarm bells ringing in my head, whether you and/or this shop keeper are sincere or not.

[byacey]

The DR280, because they are slanted in, create mud where the waves cross over. Is this true?

Just about any speakers can be used to produce "mud" if they aren't used correctly.

He said digital is better than analogue

Nobody listens to digital. Our ears hear analog. Period.

Because they can fit into smaller cars and still let loose the same amount of power (the shop clerk said these subs do 2,000 watts)

Ask him to demonstrate how well they work with a verified 2000W RMS signal; This would be most entertaining.

In fact, a handy 1800W /8 ohm 60Hz signal is available at any common 120V 15A wall outlet. Simply wire an AC plug up to the cabinet and let 'er go. Have a stopwatch ready when you plug it in to see how long the speaker lasts.

and that Mackie's can fall down two flights of stairs and still work

Before you purchase them, ask him to demonstrate this also.

He chuckled at the size of the Tuba60 and said compare it to the Mackie subs which are much smaller and sturdier can do a better job.
I don't believe it!
All crew, what do you say?

I think you need to spend some time with a real professional and first educate you ears of what good audio reproduction is, so you know what you are hearing. Then you will be able to critically evaluate for yourself what is good and what is garbage without relying on someone else's opinions or sales pitch.

I wouldn't consider buying anything until you've tried it in the field under real world conditions. Many rental companies will rent gear for your venue. This is far cheaper than you committing to the purchase of gear before you know what it will do.

It sounds like you're excited to be involved in sound production, but if you're young and just starting out, I would get some financial stability happening first. Learn the ropes by working alongside with a real professional, then when you know what you want to achieve and how you are going to do it, then start shopping around for the appropriate gear to suit your needs. Anything else I fear, will be setting yourself up for hardship and disappointment.

[Tom Smit]

I wouldn't consider buying anything until you've tried it in the field under real world conditions. Many rental companies will rent gear for your venue. This is far cheaper than you committing to the purchase of gear before you know what it will do.

@ Tweakings- Long and McQuade (more than one location) might rent you some of those items or something similar for you to get an idea.

[Grant Bunter]

Hi Tweakings,
It's a bit he said we said, however:

The DR280, because they are slanted in, create mud where the waves cross over. Is this true?

No, it's not true.
It's a design feature:
"It has a built in 8 degree splay angle, for arraying in the preferred ‘J’ shape. The angled top and bottom also eliminates response anomalies that can arise from parallel surfaces within a horn."

The salesman is unlikely to have ever encountered a horn loaded tops/mains box.

Ask him to look at the angles on big brand name line arrays. They have similar angles, for the similar purpose of stacking.

the shop clerk said these subs do 2,000 watts

That is 2000W system, or peak power, not continuous.
As byacey pointed out, if you let them run at 2000W full time, they would burn out in under a minute.

Check the pricing compared to online, at least for starters. I would still say stay away from them.
I think old mate has seen you coming, and is rubbing his hands together.

Anybody can build Bill's designs for you. Surely there is more than one woodworker in the area that may help you with a charity job...

[sine143]

as far as retail pricing goes.... 2100 canadian is a good discount (about 1000 dollars off) from the "guitar center price", which would be about 3100 canadian. this is assuming the speakers he is attempting to sell you are "brand new"

That being said, Even the T39 will outperform those subwoofers, and omnitops/jacks/SLA pros will outperform the tops.

the systems you are considering are very different from the "top of the line" systems we discussed in the past.

A pair of T39s, a Pair of SLA pros (dayton loaded) and an Inuke 3000 DSP will come out cheaper than 2100 canadian (finished in duratex, but not frills) and will be of higher quality, and also be easier to upgrade in the future.

[byacey]

this is assuming the speakers he is attempting to sell you are "brand new"

Do they still qualify as "brand new" if they were demonstrated down two flights of stairs?

[sine143]

http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... 25&t=21090

this member mentioned a "local fixit group". I would look into if one of these is available in your area tweakings.