Snail kick drum?

[Chris_Allen]

I'm having another one of my mental moments.

Could you make a kickdrum that was essentially a small drum head in the middle with a horn which extended like a snail from the centre and make it only 6-8" deep? and what would it sound like?

Like a horn driven version of Arbiter Flats.

[Grant Bunter]

I'm having another one of my mental moments.

Could you make a kickdrum that was essentially a small drum head in the middle with a horn which extended like a snail from the centre and make it only 6-8" deep? and what would it sound like?

Like a horn driven version of Arbiter Flats.

As a drummer, this is an interesting concept.
The smallest actual acoustic kick drum I have seen was a converted 16" floor tom, using Pearl's jungle jig to support it. It sounded surprisingly good through PA.

The arbiter flat lite bass drum uses a 20" head.

The problem with a very small drum head, say and 8" or 10" head, is it takes not a lot of tension on it to raise it's pitch significantly.
Acoustically, you can't dial in what's not there, so you'd have to look for fundamentals to make it work at all.

Of course, some trigger kits use small heads, but all you're trying to do there is to get a spike from a piezo transducer to trigger a sample.

Still, I've seen people use a cardboard box and a snare case as a bass drum in a studio...

What's the intended usage Chris?

[Chris_Allen]

I suppose you wouldn't need a small head, a full size one but just a small horn throat in the centre.

I was at an acoustic night last night and was playing on a set of flats. I understood the reason for portability and floor space but the sound was just horrendous! Just thought it would be a cool thing to exist. I've done some googling to can't find anything.

[Grant Bunter]

Didn't realise you are a drummer too Chris, so doh, you'd know about the small head and quickly rising pitch already.

I guess somewhere in between the flats and a regular kit would be something like the Rhythm traveller series from Pearl.

Rather than spend hard earned on the rhythm travellers though, buy an old cheapo kit (with a 20" kick) and cut the shells right down. You might have to offset the lugs to do it, but you could get the kick drum shell down to the width of the lugs + tension rod length, maybe near enough to 6" all up.

Ever since I bought my ARX 6 gate, I've been very intrigued with this:
(From: http://www.arx.com.au/Australia/Sixgate_appnotes.htm)

The Kick Drum from Hell
We've saved one of the best uses of gating until last. Have you ever wondered how you can get a gut thumping kick drum sound from the cardboard box that your drummer calls a kick drum? Here's the secret.

Patch your Kick Drum channel through your Sixgate as usual.
Take an audio Signal Generator, set it to Sine Wave output, dial up a signal around 40-60 Hz and plug that into a spare Sixgate Input.
Take a Line Out signal from the Kick drum channel and feed it into the Signal Generator gate as a key input.
Take the output of the Signal Generator gate and patch it into the Line In on the channel next to the Kick drum on your mixing console (once again only for neatness, any channel will work just as well).
Set the release time of the Signal Generator gate to the same as the Kick drum gate, and set both Depth controls to 40dB (Max)
Get the drummer to hit the Kick drum while you set the Signal Generator gate Threshold so that its LED indicators are flashing about the same rate as the Kick Drum gate LEDs.
VERY VERY slowly bring up the level of the Signal Generator channel on your mixing console until you have the amount of Low Frequency energy you want. You can alter the output frequency of the Signal Generator until you get exactly the Kick Drum sound you're after.
If you're really adventurous you can try exactly the same thing we've described above with the snare drum, using the Pink Noise output from your Spectrum Analyzer instead of the Signal Generator.

Why I like this concept is because you don't need a piezo trigger system, or a sub kick setup.
It works on the crappiest kick drum you can ever imagine.
Or a cut down acoustic kick

In an acoustic situation, you wouldn't have to run it so it sounded like gut wrenching kick though, just at a nice enough level to get a bit of warmth and life...

[Chris_Allen]

Very clever!

[miked]

/popcorn

Keep going...this is cool. Though I'm your "other half" (the bass player) I know little about drums. /take stick, hit round things for boomy sounds, hit shiny things for tinkly sounds

[Grant Bunter]

Mike,
I think it's over, unless Chris does actually come up with someting like he proposed intially.

However, I'm half wondering if something from the B&C Nautilis series cabs could be reverse engineered...

[Chris_Allen]

I think it's over, unless Chris does actually come up with someting like he proposed intially

I completely lack the knowledge to correctly design something like this or the understanding as to whether it would even work.

Might be worth building for the novelty value!

[Charles Warwick]

and what would it sound like?

Depending on the design of the horn aspect, an horn without any EQ I'd imagine. Although, it might act more like a resonator. Who knows.

[LelandCrooks]

Didn't realise you are a drummer too Chris, so doh, you'd know about the small head and quickly rising pitch already.

I guess somewhere in between the flats and a regular kit would be something like the Rhythm traveller series from Pearl.

Rather than spend hard earned on the rhythm travellers though, buy an old cheapo kit (with a 20" kick) and cut the shells right down. You might have to offset the lugs to do it, but you could get the kick drum shell down to the width of the lugs + tension rod length, maybe near enough to 6" all up.

Ever since I bought my ARX 6 gate, I've been very intrigued with this:
(From: http://www.arx.com.au/Australia/Sixgate_appnotes.htm)

The Kick Drum from Hell
We've saved one of the best uses of gating until last. Have you ever wondered how you can get a gut thumping kick drum sound from the cardboard box that your drummer calls a kick drum? Here's the secret.

Patch your Kick Drum channel through your Sixgate as usual.
Take an audio Signal Generator, set it to Sine Wave output, dial up a signal around 40-60 Hz and plug that into a spare Sixgate Input.
Take a Line Out signal from the Kick drum channel and feed it into the Signal Generator gate as a key input.
Take the output of the Signal Generator gate and patch it into the Line In on the channel next to the Kick drum on your mixing console (once again only for neatness, any channel will work just as well).
Set the release time of the Signal Generator gate to the same as the Kick drum gate, and set both Depth controls to 40dB (Max)
Get the drummer to hit the Kick drum while you set the Signal Generator gate Threshold so that its LED indicators are flashing about the same rate as the Kick Drum gate LEDs.
VERY VERY slowly bring up the level of the Signal Generator channel on your mixing console until you have the amount of Low Frequency energy you want. You can alter the output frequency of the Signal Generator until you get exactly the Kick Drum sound you're after.
If you're really adventurous you can try exactly the same thing we've described above with the snare drum, using the Pink Noise output from your Spectrum Analyzer instead of the Signal Generator.

Why I like this concept is because you don't need a piezo trigger system, or a sub kick setup.
It works on the crappiest kick drum you can ever imagine.
Or a cut down acoustic kick

In an acoustic situation, you wouldn't have to run it so it sounded like gut wrenching kick though, just at a nice enough level to get a bit of warmth and life...

We need a like button.

[Grant Bunter]

Leland,
Glad you like it

[David Raehn]

Thinking of the snail concept: How about a T24 'slim' of about 8 inches, omitting the driver, and mounting a 10" beater head in place of the access panel. I know one can only tune a 10" head so low, but the horn's acoustical impedance will come into play (loading the head, so to speak). Rotate the whole thing 180 degrees from the plans depiction so that the head is at the right height for the pedal to strike. I guess, in the absence of building one myself, have someone here that has a T24 handy pop off the access panel and thump the back side of the cone manually and see if the sound would be usefull. I don't imagine it being very loud, but would be quite low and easily mic'd.

Let me know if I'm way off base here with my thinking. I don't want to be accused of mouthing off unreasonably.

[LelandCrooks]

I've mixed so many crappy kick drums....

[Grant Bunter]

I've mixed so many crappy kick drums....

I hear ya Leland.

And in this day and age, there is no good reason to have a crappy kick sound, other than the owner cannot tune!
Sure, the quality of shells varies greatly (often dependant on price point). At least here, and I imagine everywhere in the world, Evans e-mad system heads are installed on crap kick drums in store just to show the difference they can make to crappy kick drums! The sales pitch goes on: If it makes a crappy kick sound great, imagine what it does to pro series shelled kicks.
Personally, I use Remo, who have something similar, but it's all about tuning.

I'm never quite sure why, but I can offer to tune up someones kit as a drummer, and old mate is amazed at how much better it can sound, even with old worn out heads
If I turn up as a sound guy and try the same thing, even when I say I'm also a drummer, I invariably get a mouthful of invective with 4 letter expletives (deleted).

Anyways, if you've got a signal genrator and a multi gate, at least you now know a method to get a great kick sound without the angst.

My only problem with using the method is: Old mate will now think he has a great kick drum sound, because he can hear it in the PA .

Now, back to trying to create a snail horn for Chris' project kick lol
draehn's idea is kinda getting there I think.

In the case of the kick drum, there is a reasonably fine line between the tension required in a head for playability vs tone produced. I maintain it may be difficult to achieve with a smaller sized head.
I think the issue would be to keep it light and portable and get mouth area without depth...

[biodad]

This idea might only appeal to wise drummers and pro tour sound men. Ele kick, trigger any dead sounding kick drum head or do as a friend of mine does. He bolts his kick pedal to a suit case that stores some drum toys and it gets miked and is fabulous. Forget re-inventing the wheel.

A good kick before it is miked up is like your knuckle on a cardboard box or fairly hard surface. DEAD. But then, I'm about sounding good, being light weight, not spending anything to do so, and making it easy for the sound man to EQ while having a speedy set up and sound check.

Today's "open minded " ilk of people out there, both on stage and in the audience, want it to look right and mama cass and other non sexy looking people seldom get promoted now days. Where are the feminists that are all buying Carrie Underwood, Kellie Pickler, and other thin cute cookie cutter blonds music while they bitch about discrimination?

Those two female singers are not to blame, it's we who continue to support the " cookie cutter formula" top 40 music, the media and entertainment world. Why do they want it all similar vs unique as it use to be? Because it's hard to keep finding unique great talent. It's easy to slam a new cookie up there. People will always go to the drive through window and eat the quick burger. Slam an ele or triggered kick up there and get on with your life.

The "event" is more important than the art of the music or the band now days. Even sacred " gods" like Zep and AC/DC hold the mike out on some choruses for the audience to sing. I dont want to hear a bunch of assholes sing or I'd go enjoy some karaoke somewhere. Musicians use to be special.

Making a kick sound great is simple and cheap, even when you factor in the cost of an entry level drum brain and trigger. When you consider your kick mike, positioning it every gig, accounting for stage noise and room modes, and the time it takes setting it while disturbing the bar patrons with thump thump thump. By the way, i NEVER hear any cymbols or hats that are miked. Even in concerts half the time. If I were a modern drummer, I'd be pissed and I'd just have a triggered kick (or ele), a snare, one tom and hat. You dont hear much else usually. No excuse for a bad sounding kick if done smart.

Rant over.