500-1000 seat touring rig w/ multitrack rec capabilities?

[sapavaes]

hi,

this is my first time putting together a entire system so any insight will be greatly appreciated,
looking to put together a Touring Rig for 500-1000 seat venues -

band setup is;
KEYS(DI) / ELEC GTR(fenderTwin/DI) / bass(GK MB150s/DI) / drums(KICK+O/H mics) / 4 vox /

main focus is on performance, however having the system as streamlined as poss (ie nothing over what is needed) reliabilty is paramount.

thinking 4 DR280s + 2 T48s (w/ the top spec eminence drivers) oughta do it?mix of wedgehorns for FB. what amps for power??

in terms of the multitrack recording thinking to take the prefader direct outs from console (suggestions?? - again quality with only the necessary channels give or take a handful of channels for some flexibilty) to ALESIS ADAT HD24 then dump onto LOGIC 9 edit and then export ( thinking to run it through TLAudio FATtrack for some warmth to the final mixdown, necessary? or are there VSTs available that will suffice).

is this the best way to do things?? or am i demonstrating my relative ignorance to the practicalities of live mixing/REC,..

all insight appreciated

blessings,

Sam

[DJPhatman]

Hi Sam, welcome to the forum! Please take a moment to fill out your general location in the "User Control Panel" at the top of the forum pages. This always helps us help you, as there just might be a BFM user near you.

this is my first time putting together a entire system so any insight will be greatly appreciated,
looking to put together a Touring Rig for 500-1000 seat venues -
band setup is;
KEYS(DI) / ELEC GTR(fenderTwin/DI) / bass(GK MB150s/DI) / drums(KICK+O/H mics) / 4 vox /
main focus is on performance, however having the system as streamlined as poss (ie nothing over what is needed) reliabilty is paramount.
thinking 4 DR280s + 2 T48s (w/ the top spec eminence drivers) oughta do it?

DR280s are some great tops. Are you always going to be large audiences (500+)? If yes, the stick with the DR280s. If no, then you should build DR250s. If you are doing the occasional 500+ show, then you bring what you need. If you usually do half that (250) then a pair or 2 of the DR250s are just right.

As for the bottom end, you will be just fine with T39s. Start with 4, as wide as you can transport. I recommend 27" internals, 28" external, so they will fit through just about any door. Use the Eminence Kappalite 3012LF in them, as the T39 were designed around this drivers specifications.

mix of wedgehorns for FB.

Rookie mistake, IMHO. Use 4 Wedgehorn 8, high passed at 100Hz, or a smidge lower if your subs are crossed at 90Hz.

what amps for power??

This is a personal preference, as long as the amp will power the intended cabs to full voltage without bridging. Crown, Peavey, QSC, all make good amps. Get what you can afford.

in terms of the multitrack recording thinking to take the prefader direct outs from console (suggestions?? - again quality with only the necessary channels give or take a handful of channels for some flexibilty) to ALESIS ADAT HD24 then dump onto LOGIC 9 edit and then export ( thinking to run it through TLAudio FATtrack for some warmth to the final mixdown, necessary? or are there VSTs available that will suffice).

is this the best way to do things?? or am i demonstrating my relative ignorance to the practicalities of live mixing/REC,..

all insight appreciated

I think you should consider a SAC system. For everything that you are wanting to do, SAC is your best bet.

[Grant Bunter]

G'day Sam and welcome to the forum

If you have some idea about budget, then that also lets us tailor any suggestions.

I built a full PA pretty much from scratch, finished about 6 months ago, with 2 x DR250, 4 x T39 at 20", three Wedgehorn 8's (+ 2 x POS 15's as drum fill). The rig's first day out was at an outdoor festival with a crowd of over 2K and it catered more than adequately, so I would suggest Bill's sales page figures are conservative, because I still had 6dB left on the master faders. My rig all up cost me not quite 9G but your used market is a bit friendlier price wise than ours.

DJPhatman has already made some great suggestions!

Not just because I'm a drummer, but I believe you haven't covered the kit adequately for your largest expected crowd. A kick drum mike and OH's isn't enough.
For a 5 piece kit, I would think Kick, snare, rack tom(s), floor tom, condensor on the hihats and maybe an overhead as well.
Otherwise what you've suggested is good.

If you can get in with digital mixer etc straight up it's probably better, but as more and more digital gear comes out on the market, analogue gear is getting cheaper and works fine for my purposes, so if budget is tight, that may well be a consideration.

Don't forget cabling to run it all.

Amp requirements depend what you decide to load cabs with driver wise.

[Chris_Allen]

Welcome to the forum.

I echo the statements already, the DR280's are nice but pretty big, the DR250's are far more manageable. The ratio of subs to tops is normally 2:1 for events, so in your current thinking, 4x T48's and 2x DR280's.

If you are touring, I would be thinking of redundancy. I would go for three power amps for the mains, two for the T48s and one for the DR280s. If the amp is capable of 2.5 ohms, you could still run the mains off just one amp in mono if the proverbial really did hit the fan.

I think a digital desk solution is an absolute must, especially one where you can mix remotely via an ipad+wifi. I don't know whether you will have a dedicated soundman but keeping the mixer on stage removes the problems of snakes, laptops, hard wired IEMs and emergency routing options.

I agree with what Grant says about the drum kit. Kick/Snare/Hat/Overheads would be a minimum but floor and toms add so much more to the mix, especially backed by the mains that you are thinking of. There are plenty of cheap kit mic options available, coupled with the power of a good digital desk and flexible EQ, they work very well. Probably wouldn't skimp on Kick Mic though, that's the only one I often struggle with.

Space is a real factor here, as is loading/unloading. The number of gigs I've played where I've been stressed out before I've even started playing is too many to mention. Keep it simple, keep it light, keep it maneuverable. Design everything for a one man lift even if there are many of you - it maximises efficiency. Did anyone tell you that a T48 makes a great trolley?

My last thing I would say is bring the band in on the build, give them some ownership. A band that appreciates a PA is a band worth working with.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

thinking 4 DR280s + 2 T48s

You have that backwards. Power demands go up as frequency goes down. That means using a large stack of subs and a small stack of tops, not the other way around.

[BrentEvans]

I think you should consider a SAC system. For everything that you are wanting to do, SAC is your best bet.

SAC, with SAWstudio, will do the task. Unfortunately, development has stalled of late with many promises and little results delivered. It's now going on two years since there were any major improvements in SAC, and over a year for SAW. The product still works well for me (and many others) but we must be realistic about its future. Bugs are going unfixed for long periods of time, and now even reporting bugs publicly is discouraged.

A more future-proof choice would be found in the Presonus products, or the new Allen & Heath GLD-80 or Soundcraft Expression series. All of these have most of the functionality of SAC/SAW (or better, with stageboxes, etc) and can easily dump tracks to a PC through one method or another.

The iPad interface on the GLD-80 is the best one I've ever seen. It smacks the pants off of the ViSi remote from soundcraft, or the presonus app, and it's even better than SAC-Remote in some ways.

[DJPhatman]

I think you should consider a SAC system. For everything that you are wanting to do, SAC is your best bet.

SAC, with SAWstudio, will do the task. Unfortunately, development has stalled of late with many promises and little results delivered. It's now going on two years since there were any major improvements in SAC, and over a year for SAW. The product still works well for me (and many others) but we must be realistic about its future. Bugs are going unfixed for long periods of time, and now even reporting bugs publicly is discouraged.

A more future-proof choice would be found in the Presonus products, or the new Allen & Heath GLD-80 or Soundcraft Expression series. All of these have most of the functionality of SAC/SAW (or better, with stageboxes, etc) and can easily dump tracks to a PC through one method or another.

The iPad interface on the GLD-80 is the best one I've ever seen. It smacks the pants off of the ViSi remote from soundcraft, or the presonus app, and it's even better than SAC-Remote in some ways.

I stand corrected! I am not active at all on the SAC front, but since the support is no longer there, neither is my recommendation. Thanks for the update, Brent!

I am not a Mackie fan, but I have checked out this mixer, and I like the features and price point. Any opinions?

+1 to Grant about the drum mics... I was tired and on my way to bed when I posted my answer. I failed to mention the drum mics needing to be complete.

[BrentEvans]

I stand corrected! I am not active at all on the SAC front, but since the support is no longer there, neither is my recommendation. Thanks for the update, Brent!

Please don't get me wrong. If I wanted something else, I could have it (in a brief matter of time after making the decision, anyway). I still like what SAC does for me, and it still does more than any alternative in its price range. I just can't in good conscience reccomend it without disclosing what could be a pitfall at some point. There are still many, many happy users. You just have to be a computer expert, a networking expert, and an audio engineer to make it do what it needs to.

I am not a Mackie fan, but I have checked out this mixer, and I like the features and price point. Any opinions?

It works, but the lack of a comprehensive control surface seperate from the iPad is a killer, as is the lack of expandability. The cost of the studiolive 16.4.2 is only a little more than a DL1608 plus an iPad, and it's a much better product.

[Bruce Weldy]

The cost of the studiolive 16.4.2 is only a little more than a DL1608 plus an iPad, and it's a much better product.

While I don't have experience with the other products - I do with the Presonus - both the 24 and the 16.4.2. Excellent product. I just used the iPad control surface last weekend - the only thing that I was missing was a tap tempo button for the delay and I couldn't find any way to turn auxes up or down - I could adjust each channel's feed to the aux, just not a master. Otherwise - it's very quick and responsive.

As far as the Mackie product.....no way I'd invest money in a product that is totally reliant on a third party's product to work. If my iPad craps out, I can still use my board. If Apple decides to change the product, software, etc....you have no recourse with that board - it goes in the trash. Sorry, I just don't trust computer companies to care about your Mackie board. Cool concept, cool idea......but not solid enough for me.

[racertomtom]

drums(KICK+O/H mics

Not just because I'm a drummer, but I believe you haven't covered the kit adequately for your largest expected crowd. A kick drum mike and OH's isn't enough.
For a 5 piece kit, I would think Kick, snare, rack tom(s), floor tom, condensor on the hihats and maybe an overhead as well.
Otherdrums(KICK+O/H micswise what you've suggested is good.

Kick/Snare/Hat/Overheads would be a minimum but floor and toms add so much more to the mix, especially backed by the mains that you are thinking of. There are plenty of cheap kit mic options available, coupled with the power of a good digital desk and flexible EQ, they work very well.

I’m very hesitant to say there’s a right or preferred way to mic drums. That’s kinda like saying DR250s/T60s are what you need in every application.

You can achieve amazing results with just overheads, providing, your kit is tuned for it and well balanced. For this post, tuned =shell, head selection and muffling (or lack of), not pitch. Balanced=cymbals and toms especially, are close to the same volume level. Thick shells work better as do thin\medium thin cymbals. This technique doesn’t work well on most kits.

For the past two years or so, I have used late ‘70s Ludwig Classics, very close to Pearl Reference Series, these things are obnoxiously loud, with Octavia MK-012-01 overheads and SM57s on the snare and hats just for insurance. I’ve gotten rave reviews from sound guys and musicians; no one else seems to notice. I feel strongly enough about this sound that I have 5 Sennheisers in a box somewhere, plus, I’m now only dealing with 4 mics/channels. My point is, there's more than one way to mic drums.

For kick , I agree with a good mic. Measure or have your bass drum’s band pass measured and match it to a mic with the correct range. In my case it was a Heil PR48. Besides, I always liked Bob.

So, for the OP. Let your drummer do it his way if he sounds good. If he doesn't, hit him with one of his sticks.

[doncolga]

I think you should consider a SAC system. For everything that you are wanting to do, SAC is your best bet.

SAC, with SAWstudio, will do the task. Unfortunately, development has stalled of late with many promises and little results delivered. It's now going on two years since there were any major improvements in SAC, and over a year for SAW. The product still works well for me (and many others) but we must be realistic about its future. Bugs are going unfixed for long periods of time, and now even reporting bugs publicly is discouraged.

A more future-proof choice would be found in the Presonus products, or the new Allen & Heath GLD-80 or Soundcraft Expression series. All of these have most of the functionality of SAC/SAW (or better, with stageboxes, etc) and can easily dump tracks to a PC through one method or another.

The iPad interface on the GLD-80 is the best one I've ever seen. It smacks the pants off of the ViSi remote from soundcraft, or the presonus app, and it's even better than SAC-Remote in some ways.

The GLD-80 is so drool worthy...it's expensive, but sheesh what a package. From what I've seen the AH QU-16, is impressive too, providing it would give you enough channels. Best dollar for dollar may still go to Presonus though. All good boards...tough call for me.

[BrentEvans]

The GLD-80 is so drool worthy...it's expensive, but sheesh what a package. From what I've seen the AH QU-16, is impressive too, providing it would give you enough channels. Best dollar for dollar may still go to Presonus though. All good boards...tough call for me.

Gotta say the Soundcraft Si Expressions are better than the Presonus at nearly the same price. They have a digital snake option, sends and GEQ on faders, and they sound better IMHO. They're all very expandable, and they support an iPad without a PC, although the iPad app isn't as good as the others.

[Grant Bunter]

Racertom,
I agree.
There's plenty of ways to mike a kit.
Generally I don't use overheads as vocal mikes usually pick up the shizzle from cymbal spill, but overheads are great for ambience.

When I read your post, even though you don't use them all, you have the mikes (much as I suggested) available, JIC. That's a better place to be in than not being able to cover it if required.

With the OP's other goal of being able to record multitrack at the same time, and post mixing down, was part of my reasoning for my suggestion...

[racertomtom]

Grant,
All excellent points. Admittedly, I've been focused on live sound lately, hence my interest in horn building.

[Chris_Allen]

You can achieve amazing results with just overheads, providing, your kit is tuned for it and well balanced.

The only time I could get good results with just overheads is when there are no reflective surfaces nearby (including ceilings) and no other back line bleeding in. I normally restrict the band pass of the overheads to capture just the cymbals.