How do I get control (boost) the volume of my mix?

[yigba]

I have 2 OTop 12's and 2 T39's for the smallish bars we play. I usually just take one of the T39's. The OTops are powered with a Crown XLS1500 (300 watts into 8 ohms) and the T39 is powered by a Crown XS1200 (650 watts into 8 ohms).

I run the system thru a Driverack and I limit the speakers to the 35 volts and 50 volts as indicated. The problem is my volume seems extremely low in a band setting and i am afraid that I am simply being waaaay too conservative with how much voltage the speakers are getting.

I use 2 separate groups on my mixing board which I then send to the Master fader - one for vocals and one for the instruments. We mic guitar, piano, synth, kick, sax and bass. So I like to keep the groups separate so I can control their volume and set the overall volume with the master slider on the board. The vocal group is usually set to Unity and the instrument group is set about 5-6 db's below unity.

When the band is at normal volume and everyone playing I usually hit only the bottom 2 green led's on the board meter. When i sent a 1000 Hz sine wave to check voltage I found that when I hit the first yellow led it's at the specified voltage limit for both of my amps/speakers. So I try not to get to that point on the meters.

My problem is my vocals. I use an individual compressor on them but my voice can go from a level keeping our board in those bottom green led's to taking us into the yellow led's.

So I have a few questions - am I completely misunderstanding the voltage limit? I mean if our levels are normally way below the voltage limit but just hit higher momentarily if I hit a certain note is that gonna fry the OT12's? I just feel that our average level is so much lower than it should be (when I am looking at the board meters) that perhaps I am completely missing out on our volume capability?

How do you guys get the vocals to average out signal wise with the rest of your instruments, still cut through, and not blow up your speakers?

[Rune Bivrin]

Well, a limiter is a limiter. If it's set correctly and in the correct position, i.e. just before the power amps, it will only limit when necessary.

However, what are you measuring the limiter voltage with? At 1000 Hz I'm not sure your volt meter is showing correct values. A standard DVM is usually calibrated at 50-60 Hz.

Most of the time a limiter on the tops isn't really necessary. You'll hear when the tops start sounding bad. And 50 volts should be VERY loud. Vocals are smack dab in the most sensitive part of the spectrum, so if the vocals aren't cutting through you're really doing something wrong.

[yigba]

I am measuring with a dvm i picked up at home depot. It was around $100 so I figured it would be good enough.

I thought the standard way to measure the tops should be with a 1000 hz sine wave?

[Grant Bunter]

More information would be good

What drivers are in your T39 and Otops?
Just checking, as it seems your Otops are limited to 35V and your T39 to 50V if I read correctly.

Rune has hit on something, the voltage limit for your T39 should be set with a sine wave with a value roughly in the middle of the band pass. eg with 1 x T39 and a crossover point of 100Hz, between 45Hz and 100Hz, so around 70Hz.

What is your crossover point?

With your Otops you can limit to 40V, Bill has just said in another thread that at 50% of that voltage, they should already be very loud.

And as far as the limiter goes in the Driverack, Rune is also correct, it sets a maximum voltage.

Your compressor should be setup to keep the metering fairly constant, depending on your settings, but the whole idea of using a compressor on vocals is that if you sing louder, but are under your threshold setting then the volume goes up (compared to a quieter passage), but if you exceed your threshold setting, then the resultant volume is compressed by the ratio you have set it at.

If you're using subgroups and your vocal is at unity and instruments 5-6dB down, then by rights, your vocals should be way louder than instruments, so how do the settings on the individual channel strips for vocals and instruments compare?

[DJPhatman]

I am measuring with a dvm i picked up at home depot. It was around $100 so I figured it would be good enough.

It probably gets close enough, but...

I thought the standard way to measure the tops should be with a 1000 hz sine wave?

1kHz is the "industry" standard for measuring output from an amp.

You need to limit the subs, in their band-pass. Set the limiter at 50-60hz, not 1kHz. No matter how hard you push your mixer, the voltage should never go above 50 Volts. If you are clipping the mic or the main bus inputs, it will sound like shite. It will be heard very clearly through the OTops.

What you haven't mentioned are your band pass frequencies for the subs and tops. You are high passing the subs, right? If you are not getting enough out of 1 sub, bring the second. 2 OTop12s should be far outrunning a single T39. Bring the second one, double and triple check your high pass and crossover frequencies and slope. You should be crossing over no higher than 125Hz with a very steep slope, but spread the frequencies out a little for shallower slopes.

[Rockboy]

I would say follow the "Gain Train"

First, are you maxing out the trim or gain setting on each chanel.
Follow the path through. If you are running into a compressor, does
it have a input and output matching controls???

If you are only in the green on the LED meter, you probably
don't have enough voltage going to the amps.

More set-up info would be helpful !!

Robb

[yigba]

The otops have the delta pro 12s in them. The t39s have the 3012lf lites in them.

I have them crossed at 125 hz, with a lr24 slope. I also have the high pass on the t39 set at 45hz.

I measured the voltage at a 80 hz sine wave for the t39s and a 1kHz sine wave for he tops.

[yigba]

And i run the sound from the stage so i want to be able to glance at the meters to see where we are.

And yes, i do set the gains properly at the inputs, thru any comp or eq settings, etc. Am i supposed to run the average sound levels closer to the voltage limit in order to boost overall volume and figure out a way to suppress the peaks on my vocals? Right now I may br running the fader low in order to accomodate those times when my vocal runs hot.

[Grant Bunter]

The otops have the delta pro 12s in them. The t39s have the 3012lf lites in them.

I have them crossed at 125 hz, with a lr24 slope. I also have the high pass on the t39 set at 45hz.

I measured the voltage at a 80 hz sine wave for the t39s and a 1kHz sine wave for he tops.

That all sounds near enough that you should have reasonable results in your voltage limited settings, so it seems by and large that side of things isn't the problem.

As an aside, on the SPL charts for the Otop12, I see 100dB at 2.83V/1 metre at 100Hz, so you could consider crossing over a little lower, at say 100Hz. I say this because with your current crossover point, the 100 to 125Hz currently covered by your T39 means your sub is localised, ie you can tell where it is. If you dropped you crossover settings to 100Hz your sub would no longer be localised.
Have you got a low pass on the sub as well?


Given your above post, if you're mixing on stage, how are you comparing your vocal vs instruments balancing?

Tell us more about how you set up your gain structure on the desk for vocals and instruments...

[yigba]

I pfl all the channels individually and set their gains at about the second yellow led (+1) on the mixer - Yamaha 16/6fx. (I have each player play their instrument at it's highest level and set the channel trims)
I like to leave a bit of headroom here just in case.

I then afl the output based on my two groups - the vocal group and the instrument group. I try and keep the highest level at about the first yellow led, which is Unity gain.

When I measure the voltage out of the board I get 1.23 volts with the 1kHz sine wave and the first yellow led lit up (Unity), which checks out with the specs of the board.

I then run the signal into the Driverack PA. And this must be where the problem lies. I RTA'd the speakers and came up with an eq curve that I like the sound of. It uses the Graphic eq and the parametric eq's of the driverack and is adjusted in a similar way to the SPL charts on the forum. As stated above i run the crossover with a high pass on the lows at 45 Hz, a low pass on the lows at 125 Hz, and i cross the tops at 125 Hz also. But when i leave the crossover gains at zero the voltage coming out of the unit is roughly 7 volts which easily clips my amps. The amps have input sensitivites of 1.23v and 1.4v so I have to turn the input knobs on the amps down by nearly half to get them to the correct voltage - I had been trying to get down to 35 for the tops and 50 volts for the subs. And this is without limiting of any kind yet.

As an alternative to lowering the input gains on the amps I have set the crossover gains on the Driverack down about 6-7 db's in order to get the input gains on the amp dialed wide open - with no reduction on the aamp input gains at all.

I actually used this for a gig this past Saturday night with no limiter in place at all and while it did the job i was actually out in front for a song and just didn't feel that it was loud at all.

[Bruce Weldy]

Wow.....you are doing a lot of work just to set up a mixer. Got to admit that I've never heard of anyone setting individual channels with the PFL and the main leds.....

Instead of trying to undo what you're doing, how about just doing this....

On the driverack -
Put the gains back at zero and turn your power amps all the way up.

On the mixer -
Set your Mains Fader at -5
Set your Group/submix faders at unity -0-
Set your channel faders at unity -0-

Now turn up the gain knob until it's loud enough on each channel. This should be blowing your head off. If not, turn up the master fader a little more.

I have almost your exact same setup and have played to 400 people outside with it....including a Yamaha board (before I upgraded). What I described is exactly how I've done it for years. While there is an argument for setting gain differently - this ensure that you don't overload the outputs of the channel, sub mix, or mix.

It sounds like you are worrying way too much about getting the perfect input gain. If it's too much, you'll get a red light on the channel strip.

[Bruce Weldy]

I just went and looked at your board......something that can rob you of signal is incorrect panning. Are you running mono? Or stereo?

If you are running mono and just using the L output, make sure all the pans are full L (channels and subgroups).

Just to make sure that you have everything routed correctly, bypass the subgroups - just send the channels to the mains without going through the subgroups and see if if gets louder - if it does, you've got a routing/panning problem.

[Grant Bunter]

That all sounds good, apart from the Driverack part.

I take it you are summing groups faders to stereo fader? And that's also PFL'ed to assess level?

I'm going to leave the Driverack tackling to those more familiar with them.

Hope you get it sorted out