New Build - T30s and then Otops to follow

[escapemcp]

After discovering this site a few weeks back whilst on the lookout for other speakers, I have been converted to the BFM way without so much as hearing one of them! The glowing reviews all over the forum and the science behind all of this makes me believe that these really are something else.

I organize free parties in the Bristol/Bath area in the UK and as I mentioned above, I was looking at purchasing my own speakers, rather than blagging my mates systems, but now happy to build. When I started out, I wanted a small (and light) as possible system, with the biggest possible sound. This is because sometimes we have to lug systems up to half a mile from the van to the site! I never thought it would be possible to get the SQ and volume that I am after from a small speaker, but it appears (happily) that I am wrong

I am planning to build a couple of T30s to start, and then a pair of Otop 12s. Add this to some lightweight amps and an inverter generator (rather than some class A/AB/H monsters and a big 'normal' genny) and suddenly that half a mile doesn't look anywhere near as daunting! This was going to be the end of it (or so I thought), but I can see a big gap in the market in my local area for hi-fi (SQ-wise) PA system hire. I am therefore now thinking of where to go after my small rig is built, and it is T60 and DR shaped!

I do have some questions though, apologies if they have already been answered elsewhere on this forum, but I have spent all my free time over the last week reading, and re-reading posts in here, and haven't found the answer so far. So without further ado:

1) If I initially build T30 slims with the BP102 driver, can I mix these with a wider version later on with the LAB-12 (or whatever the recommended 12" driver is for the wider T30s)? Does the differing responses of these drivers cause problems sound-wise, or worse still, endanger the drivers?
2) Can I bi-amp the Omni Tops? (am guessing yes, but wanted to check) - a Berry DCX's 6 out's this would work well.
3) I'd just like to confirm that the BFM speakers really as wow as people say.... is it 'one listen and your standards are reset upwards'? (please say yes ) I want to challenge a few local clubnight organizers to listen to my BFM rig - in your opinion, will they then be falling over themselves to get my rig into their next clubnight?
4) Are there any issues with the business side of things if I hire my BFMs out? I know that it's Bill's IP, but is there anything I should be aware of regarding this? (I know about the sales thing 40%, include plans etc - but I am not going to be selling!!! )

There undoubtedly will be more questions to follow, along with the build process pics (once I get paid on the 19th Feb ). I am unsure if I should be posting these questions here, but thought I should as it will make a nice thread once I begin the build in a few days.

I have never been so sure of anything before in my life as I am about these speakers and what I can do with them. I am looking forward to all the "HOW?" comments and proving everyone wrong - at the moment, everyone thinks I am nuts talking about 10"/12" sub drivers and the like, but I've given up explaining to them and now need to show them how it's done!!

And finally, thanks Bill. Great site, great attitude on the forums, you are going to be hearing a lot more from me! I hope I can give as much back as what I will get from here

[88h88]

Yes Bristol.

To help answer your questions

1: You can mix drivers in different width cabinets, say a narrow pair of BP102 T30s and a max wide, double drivered Lab12 T30s. HOWEVERRRRRR you have to limit the more output capable subs to the voltage limit of the smaller, less capable ones. Mixing different designs, say T24s and T30s and T48s is bad though. Don't do that.

2: You can bi-amp if you want but there's not much point, it's just more pissing about for no actual benefit. You have EQ for messing around with such things. One of the builders here has DRs with ribbon tweeters and bi-amps due to their slightly more delicate nature but I don't think anyone else does the same for the regular tweeter setups.

3: A well set up BFM setup pretty much piddles all over the vast majority of everything else, this is assuming you're setting it up properly paying attention to placement and all that jazz. I've had a few mates who DJ clubs come and listen and they all end up amazed by the sheer quality of sound. Essentially yes, you'll be known for crystal clear sound as there's an awful lot of AV companies out there speccing venues badly and being seemingly incapable of setting their shit up properly.

4: No idea actually!


As for actual advice make sure you have a limiter straight up, you don't want these puppies setting themselves alight if someone cranks things a little too loud. This will get you safe enough to do a simple DJ setup, you can add a proper EQ afterwards for making things sound even better.
They kick out a LOT of noise but there's always some tool who wants it louder. On the louder point, get the best driver you can afford as has been said here many many times, you can turn a system down but you can't make one that's running full pelt any louder.

Follow the plans and you'll be fine matey. Follow the plans and you'll be very happy too.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

4) Are there any issues with the business side of things if I hire my BFMs out?

Not with me, but IME never rent anything out that you won't mind having destroyed. I'd never rent my PA unless it included an FOH engineer: me.

[Grant Bunter]

4) Are there any issues with the business side of things if I hire my BFMs out?

Not with me, but IME never rent anything out that you won't mind having destroyed. I'd never rent my PA unless it included an FOH engineer: me.

I'm with Bill on this.
In my new venture as a live PA/lighting provider, it is only me that will run my system.

Due to the otherwise as yet unknown nature of what else I may be asked to provide as a business in the short and long term future, I plan to tidy up some other cabs I have (direct radiators), and use some of the knowledge I have learned here to improve SQ using them. I may well straight hire these, but the hire contract will include a "you break, you pay" clause.

Having just gone through an entire ground up PA build for live music (and spent the money!), I highly suggest you consider just how far into providing sound system(s) you wish to go...

[escapemcp]

I'm with Bill on this.
In my new venture as a live PA/lighting provider, it is only me that will run my system.

Yes, I would always be going along to the nights to engineer. I have engineered a few nights in Bristol and despite me only doing it a few times, I have read up so much about it that I knew more than some of the guys there who had been doing it for 5 years or more. Admittedly my knowledge is more theory than practice, but I was shocked how little some 'professionals' knew.

Having just gone through an entire ground up PA build for live music (and spent the money!), I highly suggest you consider just how far into providing sound system(s) you wish to go...

As I mentioned before, I organize free parties and engineer at a few other club nights already. I love the work and want to get stuck in further, so as for how far I want to go... all the way please!! Certainly beats fixing computers (my day job!).

Another quick question: I will be getting a DCX for limiting and x-over purposes (as no limiter means no drivers), but I am wondering why people are talking on this forum about a DCX/DEQ combo. What does the DEQ provide that the DCX doesn't?? As far as I have seen it, the DCX has: limiting, crossover, PEQ & RTA - everything that I require (I think )

Also, I once had a Behringer ULTRAMIZER PRO DSP1400P, but when it was not on 'bypass', the signal was delayed by 20ms (I measured it by generating a click noise (high attack) on my pc and routing the left channel into my second sound card on my PC and the right through the DSP1400P and into the right. You could easily then see (and measure) the delay in the 2 tracks using Audacity ). It was therefore useless for live sound use and I sold it shortly after. I take it that this DOESN'T happen on the DCX? (a few ms (=a few ft) is fine, 20ms is NOT!)

Thanks for your help so far

[Bas Gooiker]

People are using the DEQ for its more extensive eq options. Also to free up CPU power in the DCX by removing the EQ tasks.

[AntonZ]

Another quick question: I will be getting a DCX for limiting and x-over purposes (as no limiter means no drivers), but I am wondering why people are talking on this forum about a DCX/DEQ combo. What does the DEQ provide that the DCX doesn't?? As far as I have seen it, the DCX has: limiting, crossover, PEQ & RTA - everything that I require (I think )

Also, I once had a Behringer ULTRAMIZER PRO DSP1400P, but when it was not on 'bypass', the signal was delayed by 20ms (I measured it by generating a click noise (high attack) on my pc and routing the left channel into my second sound card on my PC and the right through the DSP1400P and into the right. You could easily then see (and measure) the delay in the 2 tracks using Audacity ). It was therefore useless for live sound use and I sold it shortly after. I take it that this DOESN'T happen on the DCX? (a few ms (=a few ft) is fine, 20ms is NOT!)

Thanks for your help so far

The DCX does not do RTA, the DEQ does.

There is always some latency (delay) with digital equipment. This has to do with converting from analog to digital (AD) and back (DA) as well as the processing itself. This is done in chunks (buffers). Processing can only start once a complete chunk (buffer) has been prepared on the input side. This can take a few ms. Output can only start once that same chunk (buffer) has been processed, again a few ms. And writing the calculated chunk to the outputs again takes a short while, yet a few more ms. It adds up.

One of the reasons people like the DEQ+DCX combination is that you can send a digital signal from one to the other. So there is only one AD conversion and one DA conversion. Less latency as compared to two separate digital processors each with their own AD+DA stages.

[escapemcp]

The DCX does not do RTA, the DEQ does.

Damn, I thought the DCX did, cause it had a mic input. More expense!!

One of the reasons people like the DEQ+DCX combination is that you can send a digital signal from one to the other. So there is only one AD conversion and one DA conversion. Less latency as compared to two separate digital processors each with their own AD+DA stages.

Nice, I am liking that. Looks like I will be going for the same combo then, although DCX 1st probably, as I can get away with it for a few gigs, until I can afford the DEQ as well.

Do you have any idea what latency the DCX introduces into the system? Am hoping it is just a few ms.

[escapemcp]

Do you have any idea what latency the DCX introduces into the system? Am hoping it is just a few ms.

You kind of mentioned already that it is a few ms for each conversion, so scrap that last question! Sorry <--me

What are the recommended 12" premium drivers then for the Tuba30? I have assumed Lab12, but I think that this is not the case - think I read somewhere that the Lab12 is only for the 60. As I have not purchased the plans yet (hurry up payday!) then I am unsure of what drivers are suitable.

Again, thanks to everyone's input so far.

[88h88]

The DCX does not do RTA, the DEQ does.

Damn, I thought the DCX did, cause it had a mic input. More expense!!

Nice, I am liking that. Looks like I will be going for the same combo then, although DCX 1st probably, as I can get away with it for a few gigs, until I can afford the DEQ as well.

The DCX doesn't have a mic input, you may be confusing the two! DEQ has 2 inputs, 2 outputs and an RTA mic in (as well as a few others). The DCX has 3 inputs and 6 outputs but nowt for a mic.

You can certainly get away with just using the DCX for DJ type stuff but as always some proper EQ makes these things sound fantastic. That and the DEQ has a million other awesome options to play with including the RTA stuff.

Note that this game isn't cheap by any stretch of the imagination but once you have the essentials like enough amps and the eq/crossover then the rest is just like Lego, add when you feel to go bigger/louder.

[escapemcp]

Just received a link to this in my inbox:

http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id= ... L&msh=TUF1

I know that the European builders always seem to be looking for a Duratex equivalent (or this is the impression that I have got from reading the forums). Would this do the job?

[Chris_Allen]

Any signal processor will introduce delay into the system but I've never noticed anything. Then again, I align the subs and tops to each other and then to the back line, so I'm introducing delay anyway.

The cabs do sound amazing but you have to learn how to set them up. Do it wrong and you will never get a good sound, irrespective of the system you are using.

The BP102 is a great little driver for the price but if you are running outside or without boundary loading, your sub to top ratio should be 2:1. I would be tempted to run dual driver T30's but the Lab12 is 30% more expensive than 2x BP102 but will give you the output of 4 (Can you put a Lab12 in the T30?). Build your T30 as wide as you can, the difference at 40Hz between a 16" and 30" is 6dB - that is a significant piece of free sound. If you have to move them a distance occasionally, having a clamp/latching system to hold them together as you move them would be useful. There are pictures of T24's somewhere.

The sensitivity of the T39 is better than the T30 above 50Hz. If you are focused on being light and transportable, I think sensitivity in this area is more important than 10 more Hz of low end.

Get yourself a VPlate for more free dB's!

...and....

Welcome to the forum.

[Chris_Allen]

Tuff Cab is great - but the blue colour I had was rubbish, the black was far superior.

[Grant Bunter]

Trying to do everything on the DCX seems to take up available system resources very quickly as well.

IIRC the presets leave around 33% available system space. Throw in high and low passes and limiters on channels and that leaves maybe 15%. So to EQ using PEQ with the DCX would bog down the system resources.

The DEQ has multiple run together EQ capability, so eg, you can use PEQ and GEQ together.
Throw in the RTA/Auto EQ functions (with inbuilt pink noise) for rapid system tuning room to room, and the feedback destroyer mode, and it becomes very useful indeed
Also memory for 30 odd saves.

And the DEQ also has 3 choices in metering...

edit: yes the lab 12 can be used in the T30. Also the 3012lf. And the top of the range is the 18Sound 12NLW 9300.

[Zack Brock]

2) Can I bi-amp the Omni Tops? (am guessing yes, but wanted to check) - a Berry DCX's 6 out's this would work well.

Welcome to the addiction!

Regarding bi-amping, I'm with 88h88 - its possible but not necessary, especially if you are planning to use the piezo tweeter array, melded or straight. The amount of power consumption from each array is almost insignificant that it isn't worth the trouble bi-amping. The passive crossover network in the plans works just fine. Even with the compression driver it isn't necessary, but it depends on your setup.

I would bi-amp the whole thing, just two amps, one for tops, one for subs, crossover out of your DSP Processor unit, whatever model you get.