SAC (Software Audio Console)

[djtecthreat]

So I know theres a few guys here that are running SAC. It's been on my mind for sometime to build a SAC rig, I'm in love with the idea, but I'm still trying to decide if I really *need* all the features and horsepower it possesses. I've been reading around and I'm going to join the forum over there but I like to keep my forum time to a minimum.

I have an LS-9, but I hardly ever use it unless a BE requests a digital board. I'm familiar and can work with it, but I prefer my GL2400 + outboard gear for a few reasons. I could get over that desire if the interface was better. The LS-9 interface and appearance doesn't impress me.

I digress.

Here's some questions:

1. Generally speaking what is the learning curve for SAC? Can I (being a fairly smart guy) set this up in my shop and play around, get familiar and go out and do a show with it?

2. How are you guys handling riders? I've never seen "Computer based virtual console" on a rider. Are you guys just showing up with SAC and mixing the show?

3. Fader boards: I see the Behringer BCF2000 is a widely used fader board/pack for SAC systems, how are you handling which faders are being controlled? Do basically skip through the channel banks 8 at a time and some type of indicator on screen highlights which channels are currently being effected by the faders? I would definitely like to have some tactile control over the console in the way of faders/knobs/buttons.

4. Are there any other pitfulls/advice/first things I should hear before I move forward?


Thanks!

[Tom Smit]

Have you down loaded this http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com/Downloads_Demos.htm and played with it?

[BoostFab]

I think you're better served with your questions at the SAC user forums: http://www.sawstudiouser.com/forums/for ... ay.php?f=7

[Haysus]

1. Download the demo and play around. Also watch the videos the creator, Bob Lentini, has made. If you have time watch the Sawstudio videos as well.

2.Riders- I have only done 5 shows to date with national riders and none contained a specific board but they were all thrilled when they heard and saw it. Also most tour managers that I have dealt with will talk about the gear if there is question.

3. To each his own. I've gone 2 years with only a mouse. Some guys use elaborate control surfaces. The manual has a list of usable control surfaces.

4.Read the manual, stay shy of firewire interfaces, and read the FAQ on the SAC forum and ask questions on the SAC forum.

[djtecthreat]

Boostfab,

You're right, I just want to see what my BFM brethren had to say- mostly because if there are negative things to say about SAC, it might not really get said over there.

Tom and Haysus,

I have downloaded the demo, but I feel like I need to get in front of an existing system. Probably wont happen unless theres someone in new england that wouldn't mind me watching/playing with their system.

I just downloaded the manual will read it a little later and start making notes and the like.

Thanks fellas.

[BrentEvans]

So I know theres a few guys here that are running SAC. It's been on my mind for sometime to build a SAC rig, I'm in love with the idea, but I'm still trying to decide if I really *need* all the features and horsepower it possesses. I've been reading around and I'm going to join the forum over there but I like to keep my forum time to a minimum.

You may not need them... but they sure are nice!

I have an LS-9, but I hardly ever use it unless a BE requests a digital board. I'm familiar and can work with it, but I prefer my GL2400 + outboard gear for a few reasons. I could get over that desire if the interface was better. The LS-9 interface and appearance doesn't impress me.

LS9 is probably one of the poorer examples of a digital console. SAC is much more intuitive. I have a colleague that is fond of saying "you have to think in Japanese to work one of those things."

I digress.

We'll forgive you.

Here's some questions:

That's what forums are for.

1. Generally speaking what is the learning curve for SAC? Can I (being a fairly smart guy) set this up in my shop and play around, get familiar and go out and do a show with it?

You can. I ordered my hardware, ordered SAC, put all of it together two days before my first event, and went live 48 hours later. Been running pretty smoothly ever since. Just do yourself a favor and get the right hardware the first time. The Behringer preamps that some are in love with in the community aren't reliable. Get the ART TubeOpto, Focusrite mkii Dynamic, or M-Audio Profire 2626. Buy once, cry once... as we say around here. Do MOTU or RME for your sound card.

2. How are you guys handling riders? I've never seen "Computer based virtual console" on a rider. Are you guys just showing up with SAC and mixing the show?

I don't do many shows with riders personally, but talk to the manager if you think it's going to be a problem. If they don't want to jump on board, do what you have to do to make money... nobody's going to think worse of you.

3. Fader boards: I see the Behringer BCF2000 is a widely used fader board/pack for SAC systems, how are you handling which faders are being controlled? Do basically skip through the channel banks 8 at a time and some type of indicator on screen highlights which channels are currently being effected by the faders? I would definitely like to have some tactile control over the console in the way of faders/knobs/buttons.

Concerning fader packs, the old saying about multiple methods to effect the removal of a feline epidermis certainly apply. The faders can bank on their own, or follow the board. You can have up to 32 of them if you use the Behringer, 24 if you use the CM Labs Motormix (requires a factory mod), and 8-16 of anything else (depends on the model). There is no on screen indicator, but that's not an issue if you use chase mode... whatever channel you click on becomes fader 1. I personally don't use them... mixing with the mouse works just fine and takes up less space. Where they could come in handy is getting the rig approved by managers who have preconceived ideas about what a digital mixer should be. "You tell them, I'll give you 24 faders you can assign any way you want." All other functions are on-screen in an easy-to-navigate window.

4. Are there any other pitfulls/advice/first things I should hear before I move forward?

1. Behringer pres are unreliable, but highly touted on the SAC forum for price/performance ratio. Don't fall into that trap.
2. Don't do what I did. Put the system together first, get it completely stable, play with it for a while, and be truly ready.
3. Jump in with both feet, enjoy the ride, and don't look back.

Thanks!

You're welcome.

Boostfab,

You're right, I just want to see what my BFM brethren had to say- mostly because if there are negative things to say about SAC, it might not really get said over there.

Well.. one or two have ragequit the forum, but like here, pretty much everyone that uses it likes it.

[djtecthreat]

Brent,

If you don't mind me asking- what goes wrong with the Behringer pre's? I was contemplating getting them for now and later upgrading to one of those stage boxes by Albert-AV when I grow and want to get rid of my stage snake. I know you're telling me that I should buy once cry once, but this isn't the difference between a beta and delta driver. It's a few thousand dollars difference between these things if I go with the top tier pre's.

Bob L's demo rig uses the B- Pre's and it seems to sound pretty good and do the job, So I'm guessing that's not the issue. Are these just randomly failing in the field?

I guess my point is- I have no qualms now about FOH through my DCX2496. I don't make it habit to buy Behringer gear, but that's a solid piece and it's proven itself to me. EQ's @ FOH are KlarkTeknik and the final mix goes through a $250 Behringer crossover. Makes me laugh sometimes.

[AntonZ]

The B pre's sound fine indeed and are amazing value for money in that regard. But the power supplies are a bad design/implementation. Cheap electrolytic caps hardly up to their task, mounted up close with voltage regulators that run hot. With a decent power supply they run fine, but if you count the pieces and hours you put in to upgrade the ps, you might just as well buy a better model right away.

I'm using two Behringer pre's, bought new, don't run them all day every day (weekend warrior). One is already giving static sounds on the outputs, so I can use that one for inputs only. Need to fix the ps before it blows.

[BrentEvans]

The B pre's sound fine indeed and are amazing value for money in that regard. But the power supplies are a bad design/implementation. Cheap electrolytic caps hardly up to their task, mounted up close with voltage regulators that run hot. With a decent power supply they run fine, but if you count the pieces and hours you put in to upgrade the ps, you might just as well buy a better model right away.

I'm using two Behringer pre's, bought new, don't run them all day every day (weekend warrior). One is already giving static sounds on the outputs, so I can use that one for inputs only. Need to fix the ps before it blows.

+0.9 (There are a few O's missing).

The ART units can be had for less than $400 from eBay (b stock) and Full Compass (new). They're bigger and heavier, but they do sound better and last longer. They have 12AX7 tubes in the gain stage, but they also have clean transistor gain, so they're very versatile. 12AX7s are the tube found in many thousands of guitar amps, they're plentiful and durable. I personally have the Profire 2626 units in my portable rig, as they are smaller and lighter.

If you're going to buy Behringer... buy an extra and leave it in the rack as a spare. Even Bob L. does this. You have to treat them as disposable units, especially if you don't have the electronics savvy to fix them when they break... and they will break.

[djtecthreat]

Given that I'm a BFM fan, I think we all possess a trait that allows us to trade sweat equity for money. I'm tempted to just order up one, rip it apart and just upgrade the power supply at the component level.

[BrentEvans]

Given that I'm a BFM fan, I think we all possess a trait that allows us to trade sweat equity for money. I'm tempted to just order up one, rip it apart and just upgrade the power supply at the component level.

I've done head-to-head subjective listening with these and the ART units... the ARTs win hands down. Don't get me wrong, an ADA8k SAC system will sound awesome, and better than anything else in its price range... but when you can upgrade for comparatively little money and get a massive jump in sound quality... it's worth it.

BTW... one thing that a lot of riders specify is "No Behringer." If you want to sell your system to managers, having a name like Focusrite, M-Audio, or even ART (with which you have the added sell of "Tube Quality Sound") will mean a lot.

[Haysus]

I'll agree with Brent on all points. Though I haven't used anything other than the ADA8000. After 2 years running good I would like to see what I'm missing in other preamps.

Control surfaces are to each his own. I have been going with only using a mouse or touchpad on the laptop and I don't miss anything enough to add one.

If your tech savvy then go for the upgrades, having xlr outs are great.

[SirNickity]

Hey Brent, do you use the Profire via Firewire or the optical outs?

My only M-Audio testiment is a 32-channel ADAT to Firewire box for interfacing my set of Presonus Digimax FS pre's. I absolutely hate that thing with a blue-green passion and wish I had spent the extra $100 to buy the Presonus rack-mount equivalent that is sadly no longer available. My real issue with the M-Audio box is mostly the horrible driver. I still haven't gotten it to work on my XP workstation. (Two driver versions -- CD and web -- and the audio control panel never could detect the hardware, despite it being powered by FW and showing up in Device Manager.)

On a Win7 laptop, it works OK, but my first experience was a painful half-hour mandatory firmware update on its first power-up that failed the first three times and almost bricked the box once. I'm so, so glad that I had plenty of spare time before its first gig appearance.

BTW, DJ ... my single Behringer ADA8000 died uncerimoniously after a year or so of light use, so consider how much that cash is worth to you in terms of reliability. Same old story -- bad PSU. It sounded fine to me, but I never used it in a situation where I was all that concerned about it. Between that and the Digimaxes, I didn't notice anything standing out as subjectively better or worse. (Except, of course, the Digimaxes still work and have a handy analog pass-thru.)

I also have a MOTU 24io that would be great with SAC, so it's on my list of things to try at some point. My trial with Waves Multirack didn't pan out so well (never could get it fast enough without glitching and having buffer issues) but you've already given me your opinions on Waves.

[BrentEvans]

Hey Brent, do you use the Profire via Firewire or the optical outs?

Optical, but several are using one as an interface of itself, with other preamps as additions.

My only M-Audio testiment is a 32-channel ADAT to Firewire box for interfacing my set of Presonus Digimax FS pre's. I absolutely hate that thing with a blue-green passion and wish I had spent the extra $100 to buy the Presonus rack-mount equivalent that is sadly no longer available. My real issue with the M-Audio box is mostly the horrible driver. I still haven't gotten it to work on my XP workstation. (Two driver versions -- CD and web -- and the audio control panel never could detect the hardware, despite it being powered by FW and showing up in Device Manager.)

Are you talking about the Profire Lightbridge? The Presonus box isn't any better. The Lightbridge seems to be hit-and-miss at best.

Between that and the Digimaxes, I didn't notice anything standing out as subjectively better or worse. (Except, of course, the Digimaxes still work and have a handy analog pass-thru.)

I also have a MOTU 24io that would be great with SAC, so it's on my list of things to try at some point.

As long as you have a 424 to go with that 24io, your Digimaxes could go analog in to the 24io... that woudl make a great SAC system indeed.

[SirNickity]

Yep, Lightbridge. I couldn't remember off the top of my head. When it works, it's not too bad. Latency could be better, but I'm not sure my expectations are realistic. I would sweat bullets before a serious gig if I had to depend on it though.

It's a shame to hear the Presonus hasn't fared any better, though I heard the lack of Lion drivers are a problem anyway. I do have a 424 PCI (need to upgrade that to a PCIe), and I thought about getting an 828 for the ADAT ins, except I'd like to do S-MUX on 16 channels, and there aren't enough ports for that. I use the analog outs on the Digimaxes for monitors while recording or when I'm not running a computer at all. I'd hate to lose that versatility. My setup tends to be somewhat dynamic, so I'm always looking for flexibility.

Another gotcha... my primary workstation is a 1U rackmount i5 with a single PCIe slot for the 424 (well, there's also a mini-PCIe with a Firewire adapter in it) so using another PCI-based interface is somewhat out of the question. I was hoping NAMM would provide a covenient solution. Maybe next year.