EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"

[doncolga]

Hey,

In addition to setting up the DEQ2496 autoEQ up in the yard at home, I've autoEQ'ed out at two gig's only, getting really, really different results in the sound. One was pretty good and one was way off. The venues were really different dimensions, with the bigger one working out better. I'm applying AutoEQ to tops only, starting at 100 hz...I'm going to try it a little higher. I let it run for 30-60 seconds each time of tried it before I commit to the "done" button.

What's confusing for me is that with my old EV tops or Mackies, I barely adjusted the EQ venue to venue, so I had pretty much one setting for the tops that worked everywhere I went. Sound check took about 15 seconds. Shouldn't I be able to expect that with the OT12's, once I find the EQ setting they need, using the AutoEQ as a starting point? It would make sense that it would...it's just a matter of finding that EQ setting, which I have gotten close to with the AutoEQ the very first time I used it outdoors.

Do you all have to adjust EQ's much between venues?

Thanks,

Donny

[Tom Smit]

To start off I have to say that I don't have one. However, it is my understanding that the process is to AutoEQ outdoors, and away from reflections. Then in each room you just tweak to taste. AutoEq in a room is going to vary by reflections and delays of reflections.

[doncolga]

Agreed. I think that's a big part of what I'm doing wrong. I hope to revisit this today in the yard again. I might move them inside from there and see how it travels.

[Rick Lee]

A few years ago I had the privilege of hanging out with a friend while he was tuning a large arena system (20k+ audience). His technique was that they had a baseline eq from the initial setup at the shop. In the arena he would run the system's version of "autoQ" which I think also had compensation for different delay lines, etc. But the interesting thing is that after all the autoQ stuff he would then tune by ear. Basically, he let the autoQ show him the acoustics of the room, then, taking that into consideration, the baseline into consideration and the "tonal signature" of the band into consideration he would trust his ears to tune the system. He had great ears!

So, what Brent and Tom are saying is right: Get your baseline eq outside and then at each gig tweek it as needed. Since you have a baseline you know what it should sound like. But in the room you're set up in it sounds mid-rangy or bright or dull or ?. Those are your problem freqs. With practice you can use the autoQ to show you problem frequencies in the room you're playing. Of course the eq will change every time you change positions with your measurement mic, but you can use it to give an idea of the problems. Oftentimes there's a fundamental freq. or two that's a problem and you'll notice that the problem occurs in that overtone series. For instance, let's say 100hz is strong in a room. An octave up 200hz is strong. 400hz, 800hz is peaky too. If you bring 100hz down it will usually help tame the other overtones also- you may find that 200, 400, 800 etc. don't have to come down any now. With enough practice you can walk in a room and have a sense of what freqs are gonna be the problems before you even set anything up. I can't do it but I've hung around guys that can. They had an uncanny ability to position the speakers in exactly the right place to minimize reflections. One of them liked to place the subs in corners...

[doncolga]

OK, I've basically ditched the AutoEQ for now. I got good results with it once, but every other time has been a crap shoot. So, I'm using my own ears.

Between the graphic and the parametric, I really like the parametric ALOT better and I get alot better results from it. This may not be ideal, but I just can't put the stuff outside at the moment. It's just too hot and there are too many gnats and bugs, so I've set up the OT's just beside my dining room. They sound exactly the same in here to me as they do outside, so I've started tweaking in comfort.

I'm using just two bands on the paragraphic to take an 11 dB cut at 570 and just a little boost 9 K. I put just a vocal and an audiobook, and it sounds pretty nice to me now. Music is alot more to my liking now. If I bypass the PEQ, it gets boxy just like before, so hopefully this is a move in the right direction.

[doncolga]

Should the RTA look alot different between the PEQ being on and off? It sounds ALOT different, so I just expected the RTA to look different between the two.

[Rick Lee]

Depends on how wide the Q is and the resolution of the RTA. If you're running 1/3 octave and a narrow Q you may not see much difference.
FWIW, I hate using 15 band graphics to try to tune a system- you just can't dial the sound in. 1/3 octave resolution gets the job done nicely, but having some parametric e.q. is like using real butter in the frosting- it just tastes right! (I think we should have Father's Day more often...)

[doncolga]

Depends on how wide the Q is and the resolution of the RTA. If you're running 1/3 octave and a narrow Q you may not see much difference.
FWIW, I hate using 15 band graphics to try to tune a system- you just can't dial the sound in. 1/3 octave resolution gets the job done nicely, but having some parametric e.q. is like using real butter in the frosting- it just tastes right! (I think we should have Father's Day more often...)

This is on the DEQ2496. I used to only have a little 15 band stereo. The parametric feels much easier to use to me. The boxy sound I was experiencing is gone. If you bypass it, you can really hear it. Next is to try it again outside and at other venues, but I'm glad I got it straight at least where I am.

[Ken Lustgarten]

OK, I've basically ditched the AutoEQ for now. I got good results with it once, but every other time has been a crap shoot. So, I'm using my own ears.

Between the graphic and the parametric, I really like the parametric ALOT better and I get alot better results from it. This may not be ideal, but I just can't put the stuff outside at the moment. It's just too hot and there are too many gnats and bugs, so I've set up the OT's just beside my dining room. They sound exactly the same in here to me as they do outside, so I've started tweaking in comfort.

I'm using just two bands on the paragraphic to take an 11 dB cut at 570 and just a little boost 9 K. I put just a vocal and an audiobook, and it sounds pretty nice to me now. Music is alot more to my liking now. If I bypass the PEQ, it gets boxy just like before, so hopefully this is a move in the right direction.

Tuning a system can get frustrating. Your ears get used to what you are hearing and after an extended session you get lost. Walk away for an hour or so. Keep a good set of cans handy as a reference so as you stated your ears don't get messed up in the process. I just eq'd DR200's in my build thread and posted the results. There is also a pic in the eq section here from Brents DR's. I compared his and mine and they are quite close. You will not be able to trust the sub 2k frequencies (below the crossover point) but the graphs can help you in dialling in the piezos. You mentioned a boost at 9k but there is a sharp peak at just bellow 10k. The SPL graphs for the OT12 don't dhow the peaks but the OT's use the same melded arrays as the DR's just shorter. They also use the same crossover so they should have the same peaks. Maybe someone with OT's can confirm this? Use you parametric and copy mine or Brents settings and see how it works. Brents show the readings logically, mine show the settings in an XTi amp and the Q values do not work like you would expect bigger numbers mean a narrower band After setting up the parametric try the auto eq again. It will most likely work better once the system is fairly flat. Once you get a system going there is a method to the madness and things get easier.

Another thing to try is using software instead of the auto eq. I use True RTA and really like it but it's is not free (there is an evaluation version). REW is free and works well, that's what I would start with.

[doncolga]

I noticed something unusual yesterday about my road trips this weekend. I was on the road for about six hours total, listening to 70s-90s pop and chill/electronic on the installed Bose system in the vehicle. Suddenly yesterday I noticed how annoying it was and the mids seemed way too low...everything was set as usual. I'm wondering if my ears are beginning to "see the light" now that I'm gigging more regular with the OT12's and hearing more mids than I did before?

I do alot of recording/mixing, and in that application when I RTA my mixes I expect them to slope down gently left to right, visually affirming what I see to what I hear. Shouldn't that be the same thing to aim for RTAing my live rig with the DEQ2496?..with the ears being the final call?

Thanks!

Donny

[Radian]

I noticed something unusual yesterday about my road trips this weekend. I was on the road for about six hours total, listening to 70s-90s pop and chill/electronic on the installed Bose system in the vehicle. Suddenly yesterday I noticed how annoying it was and the mids seemed way too low...everything was set as usual. I'm wondering if my ears are beginning to "see the light" now that I'm gigging more regular with the OT12's and hearing more mids than I did before?

Definitely.

Give it enough time and you'll be easily picking out (and possibly annoyed by) things like poor transient response, lack luster frequency response, crappy source material, comb filtering (while moving around), and IMD.

[doncolga]

A straight EQ question here...do you all have to add much hi's to your OT 12's? I'm thinking I'm having to dial in too much. Tonight at church I was around +5 db centered around 9 hkz...does that seem reasonable...or an indication something *is* off? I also found that I needed to cut a good bit (about 7dB around 270 hz)...that's about all the adjustment I did.

[Radian]

I don't have OT's but from what I've frequently seen...when pole-mounted they tend to sit tilted back a degree or two. As you know, that vertical dispersion pattern is exceptionally tight. Make sure it's pointed at or very near it's intended target.

[doncolga]

I don't have OT's but from what I've frequently seen...when pole-mounted they tend to sit tilted back a degree or two. As you know, that vertical dispersion pattern is exceptionally tight. Make sure it's pointed at or very near it's intended target.

Thanks man...I'll try that. I know this past Friday they were sounding pretty good and I had the top of them at about 6'4". Tonight they're a good bit higher being on stage...I haven't listened to them from in the back of the room, but the other folks did.