Newbie on new project

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PzD
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:13 am
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Newbie on new project

#1 Post by PzD »

Hi everyone here!

I'm PzD from south of Belgium!
I've a friend to hepl me for these projects, having lots of tools and experience in woodworking :
1- replace the speakers of the PA of my band (maybe in two steps as described further) with BFM Design ones,
2- maybe replace my current bass speaker with a stack of two Jack15 :cowboy:
3- build home theater Hi quality BFM Designed speakers.

So, the first project will consist of two steps. I've not ordered anything yet, so it's still time to move on something else :)
The amp used in the PA system is the All-in-One Mackie PPM 608 (2 channels of 500W under 4Ohm).
I planned to build a pair of OmniTop12, as the mais use of the PA is to hear the lead singer and my backing vocals in rehearsal.
The setup will be completed later by a pair of Tubas, as it is planned to use this amp for small indoor / outdoor gigs.

Additional requirements : the maximum width of the speakers cannot go over 24" , and the system should be fully stackable.

Am I right with the choices of my set of speakers ?

Many thanks and best regards !

Mikey
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Re: Newbie on new project

#2 Post by Mikey »

First off, Welcome To The Forum!

Your powered mixer is horribly inadequate for the new system that you're planning, in every way...

* Mackie's advertised "2x500w" is misleading; they're refering to peak power. Generally, only cheap, unscrupulous brands use peak power figures. Read further into the Owner's Manual and you'll find that it's actual 2x150w RMS into 8 ohms, 2x250w RMS into 4 ohms. That's not even enough power to equal the power handling of the drivers.

* The dual 7-band graphic equalizers are not adequate for smoothing speakers' frequency response or fixing room problems.

* There are just not enough inputs/channels on the mixer to use your PA PROPERLY.

In order to take your intended step up, you're going to need a proper, professional mixer, power amp(s), and outboard gear. Cranking the guitar amps up, having the drummer beat as hard as he can, and using the PA only for vocals is not the way to better sound. If you truly want to upgrade your band's sound, you must plan to do away with that scenario before you even get started.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite direction."

Albert Einstein

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PzD
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Re: Newbie on new project

#3 Post by PzD »

Thanks for your advices on the Power amp...
but I already own it... Improvement is planned on this point, but not for the moment (because of budget issues)

We'll move to a bigger rehearsal room (36 square meters, aside of my garage) as soon as I've finished the phonic insulation, and thats why I want to replace the old speakers (cheap ones, bought in the 90'), with more flexibility and power (for personal use, in private events), even if the PA amp cannot handle it right now.

I just want to go step-by-step :
first step was the room to get more comfortable,
present is the speakers to hear the vocals better (but not only),
and future are subs (near future), 16 inputs mixing table and recording equipment, appropriate Power Amp...

But I take all advices on mixing table and power amp stuff :)

el_ingeniero
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Re: Newbie on new project

#4 Post by el_ingeniero »

Seriously, these speakers absolutely require better EQ than the 7 band EQ on your powered mixer.

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Newbie on new project

#5 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

el_ingeniero wrote:Seriously, these speakers absolutely require better EQ than the 7 band EQ on your powered mixer.
I use a 7 band on a powered mixer.

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Doug Hart
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Re: Newbie on new project

#6 Post by Doug Hart »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:I use a 7 band on a powered mixer.
+1

I've used them for several years with no EQ at all. Same with Jack 12's... they sound great.
It doesn't have to be complicated.

There's always a better way of doing things, but sometimes the simplest way works just fine.
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Mikey
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Re: Newbie on new project

#7 Post by Mikey »

PzD wrote:We'll move to a bigger rehearsal room (36 square meters, aside of my garage) as soon as I've finished the phonic insulation, and thats why I want to replace the old speakers (cheap ones, bought in the 90'), with more flexibility and power (for personal use, in private events), even if the PA amp cannot handle it right now ... I just want to go step-by-step ... I've a friend to hepl me for these projects, having lots of tools and experience in woodworking ... I planned to build a pair of OmniTop12
Since your friend has the tools and experience, you should consider DR250s instead of OT12s.
PzD wrote:future are subs (near future), 16 inputs mixing table and recording equipment, appropriate Power Amp ... But I take all advices on mixing table and power amp stuff
That's going to be the expensive sticking point. Your Mackie will "work" for a set of tops, but there's no way to expand on it to use it with subs. So, when you're "ready" to add subs, you'll also need your new mixer, power amp(s), active crossover, EQs, limiters, a lot more cables, more mics, and other miscellaneous expenses. In other words, it won't be a matter of buying one piece of the new gear at a time and adding it to your Mackie setup; you'll pretty much need it all at once.

To choose an appropriate mixer, you must first determine how many channels you'll need in order to run everything into the board; 1 channel per vocalist, 1 channel per instrument, and 1 channel for each drum mic. The drums are the tricky part of the equation, because although you may only use a few mics on the drums at first, that number will grow as the drummer buys more mics, until his entire kit is properly mic'd. Example: 3 vocal mics, 1 guitar, 1 bass guitar, 1 keyboard, 3 drum mics ... that's 9 channels. But then, what happens if the guitarist needs to play acoustic guitar for some songs, the keyboardist adds another keyboard, and the drummer buys mics for each drum plus two overheads for cymbals (that's 7 mics for a 5-piece kit). You may not be able to foresee that at this point in time, but once you have a good, full PA up and running, those types of things will happen, quickly. Even the 16 channel mixer in your plans may quickly become inadequate. It's better to be prepared for that in your planning and purchase stages rather than having to say "sorry, mates, we're stuck with our limitations due to poor foresight in the planning stage".

For your planned setup of a pair of tops and a pair of subs, and given your budget, a Crown XTi 2000 may be a good solution, especially if one of you already has a laptop that you can use with it. It can supply adequate power, crossovers, limiters, and EQ, all in one tidy package.

Although this may all seem like a big financial mountain being piled in front of you, it's really not. Yes, it will cost you some cash up-front, but there will be serious potential benefits on the other side. Once you have a great sounding, full pro PA, your band will sound 100% better, immediately, so you'll have greater potential to land more gigs, and bigger gigs, paying more money. Your investment can pay for itself quickly if you put forth the effort.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius, and a lot of courage, to move in the opposite direction."

Albert Einstein

el_ingeniero
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Re: Newbie on new project

#8 Post by el_ingeniero »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
el_ingeniero wrote:Seriously, these speakers absolutely require better EQ than the 7 band EQ on your powered mixer.
I use a 7 band on a powered mixer.
I stand corrected ... :slap:

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Tom Smit
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Re: Newbie on new project

#9 Post by Tom Smit »

With your current mixer you could take a line out of the main out on the front, run it through a DCX2496 or similar, and then feed it back into the power amp inputs. When the time comes for subs, use the "A" input for tops, and the "B" input for subs. But having said all this, this is just a starting point because, really, a different mixer and amps would allow the full potential of the cabs.
TomS

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PzD
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Re: Newbie on new project

#10 Post by PzD »

Thanks all for reply!

With all your comments, I'm thinking about replacing OT12 by Jack 12.
I read somewhere on the forum that :
- they are great,
- they do not require subs,
- they can be matched with subs when needed,
- they are easier to build.

Are they a best choice ? I can always go on OT12 if I'm not satisfied with Jacks, and use the jacks as Bass speakers :D
I've already planned to build a pair of Jack15 for my bass, so it should be a good preview, and still could use them as backup or training!
(as for bass my tunings are A-E-A-D-G, B-E-A-D, and soon F#-B-E-A-D, I need all the lows I can get from a speaker!)

Thanks again, this forum is awesome!

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PzD
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Re: Newbie on new project

#11 Post by PzD »

Mikey wrote:
PzD wrote:future are subs (near future), 16 inputs mixing table and recording equipment, appropriate Power Amp ... But I take all advices on mixing table and power amp stuff
That's going to be the expensive sticking point. Your Mackie will "work" for a set of tops, but there's no way to expand on it to use it with subs. So, when you're "ready" to add subs, you'll also need your new mixer, power amp(s), active crossover, EQs, limiters, a lot more cables, more mics, and other miscellaneous expenses. In other words, it won't be a matter of buying one piece of the new gear at a time and adding it to your Mackie setup; you'll pretty much need it all at once.

To choose an appropriate mixer, you must first determine how many channels you'll need in order to run everything into the board; 1 channel per vocalist, 1 channel per instrument, and 1 channel for each drum mic. The drums are the tricky part of the equation, because although you may only use a few mics on the drums at first, that number will grow as the drummer buys more mics, until his entire kit is properly mic'd. Example: 3 vocal mics, 1 guitar, 1 bass guitar, 1 keyboard, 3 drum mics ... that's 9 channels. But then, what happens if the guitarist needs to play acoustic guitar for some songs, the keyboardist adds another keyboard, and the drummer buys mics for each drum plus two overheads for cymbals (that's 7 mics for a 5-piece kit). You may not be able to foresee that at this point in time, but once you have a good, full PA up and running, those types of things will happen, quickly. Even the 16 channel mixer in your plans may quickly become inadequate. It's better to be prepared for that in your planning and purchase stages rather than having to say "sorry, mates, we're stuck with our limitations due to poor foresight in the planning stage".
Thanks for all these advices !
For mic inputs, I planned to find some system with 16 mics (not 16 lines), as
- the drummer is at 8 mics (4 toms, 1 snare, 1 bassdrum and 2 overheads)
- 2 guitars
- 1 bass
- 2 vocals

which let me some space if the drummer add 2 toms and a bassdrum.
If I need more mic, maybe I'll tell the drummer it's time to go with triggers to spare mic entries for other like keyboards, other guitars...
Mikey wrote: For your planned setup of a pair of tops and a pair of subs, and given your budget, a Crown XTi 2000 may be a good solution, especially if one of you already has a laptop that you can use with it. It can supply adequate power, crossovers, limiters, and EQ, all in one tidy package.

Although this may all seem like a big financial mountain being piled in front of you, it's really not. Yes, it will cost you some cash up-front, but there will be serious potential benefits on the other side. Once you have a great sounding, full pro PA, your band will sound 100% better, immediately, so you'll have greater potential to land more gigs, and bigger gigs, paying more money. Your investment can pay for itself quickly if you put forth the effort.
The Crown XTi 2000 is listed 700-900 EUR here, which can be a good investment compared to the capabilities of the amp.
And Yes, I can dedicate some computer to it (as I got 4 at home!).

My main goal was good rehearsal and recording, but if the step is not so far for gig production, I may contact some friends of mine in this buisness (they produce small underground gigs, but have to rent all their PA stuff).

All in all, it's a bit out of scope and buget, but may worth the effort in the future!

Thanks again for your advises!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Newbie on new project

#12 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

el_ingeniero wrote:
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
el_ingeniero wrote:Seriously, these speakers absolutely require better EQ than the 7 band EQ on your powered mixer.
I use a 7 band on a powered mixer.
I stand corrected ... :slap:
It also helps that I have standalone RTA gear so that I can get the best result with it. But if you know what you're doing a 7 band graphic is adequate. If your EQ is parametric you can get by with even fewer bands, as I did when I ran a Yamaha 01v. Most who don't have 45 years of experience working with PA will find that an EQ with built in RTA like the 2496 makes life easier, though.

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