EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I've hooked up my brand new OT12's and T30's in the front yard. I usually run my EQ flat, which is what I'm doing now. They sound pretty different to me than what I'm used to, so I'm wondering am I for the first time hearing my system flatter than I have before, and it's not knocking me out? Right now the highs don't seem as crisp and clear as what I'm used to and the hi mids seem to be more alot more prominent (boxy). This is melded array with a 2512. My old tops were SRM 450's and more recently EV S151's. I'm wondering if I'm just that used to the old sound.
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
-
- Posts: 8539
- Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
- Location: New Braunfels, TX
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Where are you crossing over?doncolga wrote:I've hooked up my brand new OT12's and T30's in the front yard. I usually run my EQ flat, which is what I'm doing now. They sound pretty different to me than what I'm used to, so I'm wondering am I for the first time hearing my system flatter than I have before, and it's not knocking me out? Right now the highs don't seem as crisp and clear as what I'm used to and the hi mids seem to be more alot more prominent (boxy). This is melded array with a 2512. My old tops were SRM 450's and more recently EV S151's. I'm wondering if I'm just that used to the old sound.
6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210
"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I'm crossing over the tops at 100 hz, 48 db slope...that may be a little steep for that side of the slope. It's like my instinct is to boost the highs for presence and cut the mids based on what I'm hearing...relative to what I'm used to.....I'm thinking the area around 700-800 hz is here alot more than what I'm used to. I've got batting everywhere inside the box (except the port handles) and on the back panel. It does really through and gets loud with little power, which is cool.
The reason I ask are my ears messed up is my old rig is simply the one I hear all the time...maybe my ears are just trained to it?...
Since the only EQ I've been using on the tops recently is just a db or two of highs, I just use the one on the DCX 2496...which is not even close to a graphic EQ, so I don't even have a graphic in the chain right now.
I'd also like to test them but am not certain about how to do it. I do have the Behringer measurement mic and I know there used to be a measurement program for the Mac I messed around with a while back for studio use. I'd love to test them...
This is the one I played around with before.
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/16526/fuzzmeasure-pro
This one is free though...http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
The reason I ask are my ears messed up is my old rig is simply the one I hear all the time...maybe my ears are just trained to it?...
Since the only EQ I've been using on the tops recently is just a db or two of highs, I just use the one on the DCX 2496...which is not even close to a graphic EQ, so I don't even have a graphic in the chain right now.
I'd also like to test them but am not certain about how to do it. I do have the Behringer measurement mic and I know there used to be a measurement program for the Mac I messed around with a while back for studio use. I'd love to test them...
This is the one I played around with before.
http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/16526/fuzzmeasure-pro
This one is free though...http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3041
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
The latest version of REW (V5) is very nice. I've used it to tune several systems/rooms now. It seems very similar in function to what I've seen of SMAART (which is limited, mind you). The RT60 measurements have come in quite handy, they tell a story that the RTA doesn't always tell.doncolga wrote: This one is free though...http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
- Bill Fitzmaurice
- Site Admin
- Posts: 28916
- Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
OT12s don't have flat response; that's the price paid for high efficiency from a small box. They must be EQ'd.doncolga wrote:I've hooked up my brand new OT12's and T30's in the front yard. I usually run my EQ flat, which is what I'm doing now. They sound pretty different to me than what I'm used to, so I'm wondering am I for the first time hearing my system flatter than I have before, and it's not knocking me out?
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I have a 15 band stereo EQ I can work with right now, so I'll be giving that a try tomorrow. I've no doubt I'll be a super happy camper once I get it set like I want. Today was the very first day I played them up to volume with the Tubas, so a little more time dialing in should have me set.Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:OT12s don't have flat response; that's the price paid for high efficiency from a small box. They must be EQ'd.doncolga wrote:I've hooked up my brand new OT12's and T30's in the front yard. I usually run my EQ flat, which is what I'm doing now. They sound pretty different to me than what I'm used to, so I'm wondering am I for the first time hearing my system flatter than I have before, and it's not knocking me out?
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
A good way to keep your ears in check is by listening to .aiff, .flac, or .wav (staying away from .mp3 or .m4a) music files of the tunes you frequently play through a good (ie. flat) set of ear buds or cans every other day or so. You can't get a more honest sound for cheaper than that. Even try listening to a few minutes of pink noise through them. Once you get used to that sound, you'll have a standard by which to compare your main system.
Ear buds are my preference, because they're even less expensive than cans.
You'd be hard pressed to find something cheaper that sounds as good as a pair of Sony MDR-AS40EX. Highly recommended.
Ear buds are my preference, because they're even less expensive than cans.
You'd be hard pressed to find something cheaper that sounds as good as a pair of Sony MDR-AS40EX. Highly recommended.
Good food, good people, good times.
4 - AT
1 - TT
1 - THT Slim
2 - SLA Pro 4x6 Alphalite
4 - AT
1 - TT
1 - THT Slim
2 - SLA Pro 4x6 Alphalite
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Try by pulling out what is higher according to the SPL graph. In other words, work the EQ as a mirror image of the graph....and then season to taste.
Are the tweets at ear level? You might not be "in the beam".
Is your in-cab filter correctly wired in?
Your slope is correct.
Are the tweets at ear level? You might not be "in the beam".
Is your in-cab filter correctly wired in?
Your slope is correct.
TomS
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I'll definitely try that with the EQ mirror. Looking at the chart does seem to correlate a little with what I'm hearing. I did have the tweeters at ear level and I've got a prebuilt crossover for this box, so that should be OK. Just out of curiosity, I've tried looking for charts on my old boxes, but can't locate them.Tom Smit wrote:Try by pulling out what is higher according to the SPL graph. In other words, work the EQ as a mirror image of the graph....and then season to taste.
Are the tweets at ear level? You might not be "in the beam".
Is your in-cab filter correctly wired in?
Your slope is correct.
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I was browsing through the SPL charts and came across this for combo ported 15" cabs which is what I've used for tops the past little while, prior to that it was combo ported 12's. I really think this is just what I'm used to hearing.

Which is alot different than this one for the OT12:

I think the mirror EQ will get me closer to what I'm accustomed to, keeping in mind that I've probably been a little midrange deficient all this time
. Also, for some reason, I've just assumed that using EQ was not ideal...I need to reconsider that, per http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... =17&t=2643. I'm really excited about getting the EQ on them.

Which is alot different than this one for the OT12:

I think the mirror EQ will get me closer to what I'm accustomed to, keeping in mind that I've probably been a little midrange deficient all this time

Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Woohoo!...OT12's are doing well after some EQing. At the moment I'm cutting no more than 3 dB starting at 630 Hz up through 6.3 KHz on the 15 band...you can really tell a difference when the EQ is bypassed....the high mids are way stronger. I'm going to play with it some more here shortly. My first try this morning was out about twenty feet in front of the house (2 story) and pointing into it, so I may have been in a less than ideal location.
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Indeed, our ears are exceptionally sensitive in this region.doncolga wrote:you can really tell a difference when the EQ is bypassed....the high mids are way stronger
Good food, good people, good times.
4 - AT
1 - TT
1 - THT Slim
2 - SLA Pro 4x6 Alphalite
4 - AT
1 - TT
1 - THT Slim
2 - SLA Pro 4x6 Alphalite
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
I thought I had the EQ straight, but it's proving a little bit elusive for me at the moment. It seems like area in the snare drums region is what I'm having trouble with at the moment. Should this stereo 15 band be cutting it? I'd really like to get a DEQ 2496 to go with my DCX, just absolutely no funds for it at the moment. I know that'd be alot more flexible.
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
- BrentEvans
- Posts: 3041
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:38 am
- Location: Salisbury, NC
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Don, a 15 band EQ still has very wide filters compared to a 31 band. They do OK for adjusting tone, but not so much for scientific EQ. It may be that you'll simply need a better EQ than you have to get the sound you're looking for. Fortunately, you have some parametric EQ in your DCX, and it should be enough to get you smoothed out. The key is having access to some type of analyzer and a reference mic to help you see what's going on with the cab. I have the stuff and I'd be happy to help you out... but I'm 6 hours north of you. If you want to make the drive let me know, but it would probably be cheaper just to buy a mic yourself. The Dayton reference mic is only $40 or so from PE, you can use your mixer to power it, and a line out into your PC's sound card to get the audio in.doncolga wrote:I thought I had the EQ straight, but it's proving a little bit elusive for me at the moment. It seems like area in the snare drums region is what I'm having trouble with at the moment. Should this stereo 15 band be cutting it? I'd really like to get a DEQ 2496 to go with my DCX, just absolutely no funds for it at the moment. I know that'd be alot more flexible.
With that mic, and what you already have, you can put together something that should work pretty well. If you have an external audio interface for the PC, even better. RoomEQWizard from Home Theater Shack is a free program that (I feel) is every bit as good as SMAART for this type of work, and if you set up your rig properly, you should get a fairly accurate measurement.
When using parametric EQ (what the DCX offers) you should internalize the relationship of octaves, Q, and frequency. An octave doubles or halves a frequency. For example, A4 on the piano is 440hz. The next A above (A5) is 880 (roughly) and the one below (A3) is 220 (roughly). The roughly comes in because pianos (as well as other instruments) used a stretched scale to overcome certain deficiencies in our perceptions of sound... but for the purposes of EQ the doubling/halving rules apply. Once you find the center frequency you want to adjust, you look at the point where you want the adjustment to stop, and determine the bandwidth of the filter from there. For instance, if you want to make a cut from 100-400hz, you would center the filter at 200hz, and make it two octaves (100 = 1/2 of 200, and 400= 200x2). I find that using fewer wider filters results in smoother sound than a bunch of small filters... but you have to use the narrow ones too - it all depends on what the analyzer shows.
Even when they had piezo tweeters, I could tune in my DR200s with 6 bands of EQ (what the DCX offers IIRC) and get great sound. The OTops are a bit flatter than the DRs, so you should be able to get pretty close... then use the 15 band for making smaller wider tone adjustments, or adjusting for room resonances and so forth.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
Re: EQ Question: Are My Ears "Messed Up"
Thanks SO much for the message man. I've no doubt these boxes will deliver the goods and then some along with the T30's, I've just not put it all together yet. I really feel like the analysis will point me in the right direction...I'm just not really clear on how to do it. The only measurements I've ever done have been for my project studio a few years ago, and I didn't know what I was doing then, much less now. I'd REALLY like to learn to do this and apply it's results properly. I think it would benefit my recording efforts as well as this area.BrentEvans wrote: Fortunately, you have some parametric EQ in your DCX, and it should be enough to get you smoothed out. The key is having access to some type of analyzer and a reference mic to help you see what's going on with the cab.
With that mic, and what you already have, you can put together something that should work pretty well. If you have an external audio interface for the PC, even better. RoomEQWizard from Home Theater Shack is a free program that (I feel) is every bit as good as SMAART for this type of work, and if you set up your rig properly, you should get a fairly accurate measurement.
When using parametric EQ (what the DCX offers) you should internalize the relationship of octaves, Q, and frequency.
Even when they had piezo tweeters, I could tune in my DR200s with 6 bands of EQ (what the DCX offers IIRC) and get great sound. The OTops are a bit flatter than the DRs, so you should be able to get pretty close... then use the 15 band for making smaller wider tone adjustments, or adjusting for room resonances and so forth.
I've got one of these mics http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx for room measurements, my mixer has USB, so I've got computer I/O, and I've got the RoomEQWizard program, plus another Mac application called FuzzMeasure.
Thanks!
Donny
Donny Collins
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW
Built:
Two 18" Tuba 30's 3012 LF
Two 26" Tuba 30's Lab 12
Two OmniTop 12's DL 2512 (Melded Array)
Presonus Studio One DAW
Harrison Consoles MixBus 32C DAW