Trying to lockdown ONE DR flying technique.

[gdougherty]

the front 2 points would pin together.

I can't picture what you mean, please explain further! The quest here is to lock down one solid technique and all opinions are welcome!

You'd have a slot on one end and a tab on the other with a hole through both perpendicular to the side of the cabinet. One of the locking pins would pass through the hole and lock the two together, aligning the front of the cabs and providing a pivot point. I'm borrowing the idea from the l'Acoustics dVdosc arrays I helped rig last summer. Nice way to do it, everything rides in cases face down, slide the fronts together, pin them , use a metal bar with holes in it on either side to set your rear angles. The hanger pins to the top box just like all the other cabinets and up it goes. There are diagrams and/or photos on the l'Acoustics website if you want to see it.

[Harley]

. the metal hanger on the forks of the forklift is part of the penn system??

No, they are the client's design and look a lot like Nimrod's design.

I supply only what gets fixed onto the cabs.

[Israel]

I think I have in mind a DIY prototype hanger i got to deal with the center of gravity of the j Arrays of the drs once I get it on with the drs it will be easier to adapt it to the ot's and jacks

[Fish]

Keep in mind that the commercially-manufactured line array boxes' rigging is usually all steel construction, and is often completely external to the loudspeaker enclosure. As such, only the rigging components are subjected to the sum total weight of the entire array, not any part of the individual enclosures. Steel "pin-able" brackets (some fixed, some hinged) fix the various between-box angles and lock the array in to what becomes effectively a single, solid unit.

Turntablist's original idea adds the load of each additional loudspeaker to the wood enclosure of all the boxes above, which at some point is going to be beyond the safe load limits of the topmost box. I highyl recommend talking to an experienced, certified/licensed, and old (in other words: VERY experienced!) structural engineer before suspending anything around anyone. They can figure out the safety design (often a 5:1 factor, sometimes up to 10:1 in "dangerous" locations such as earthquake country) and will factor in the force vectors that are not always obvious to the rest of us, including what happens if the wind blows or someone should happen to bump in to things.

It seems to me that one of the best solutions were if it was simple enough to just add steel hardware to the exterior of the loudspeakers in the same way the commercial manufacturers do. Admittedly, this is likely far from the cheapest or lightest of options, but certainly a proven design concept. These existing systems also have appropriate "grid" or "bumper bar" attachments for the top of the array that makes attaching the array to the rigging simple and easily adjustable.

The first example that came to my mind is the JBL VERTEC 4889: the little image there kinda shows the steel frame attached to the side of the box. Meyer Sound has similar functionality, and easier to get at documentation for how to use it. I've also used the M'elodie system before; here's a link to the rigging instructions for it. Of these two specific products, Meyer's grid is all steel and very heavy; JBL's bumper bar is aluminum and much easier to work with.

I hope this additional detail helps. Be safe out there....

[DJPhatman]

I will throw my 2 cents worth in. My idea for hanging DIY cabs is to make and use external steel "frames" that would basically be stacking the cabs inside an adjustable length frame, then hang the frame. Once you have the maximum weight figured out, it is a lot less expensive to get an engineer to OK an external frame design.

[Turntablist]

Turntablist's original idea adds the load of each additional loudspeaker to the wood enclosure of all the boxes above.

Look again.

They can figure out the safety design (often a 5:1 factor, sometimes up to 10:1 in "dangerous" locations such as earthquake country) and will factor in the force vectors that are not always obvious to the rest of us, including what happens if the wind blows or someone should happen to bump in to things.

This thread is supposed to try to meld everybody's thoughts together to create a concept that is easy to work with and that is created within a reasonable price. As you say, an engineer will have to look into the details later.

It seems to me that one of the best solutions were if it was simple enough to just add steel hardware to the exterior of the loudspeakers in the same way the commercial manufacturers do. Admittedly, this is likely far from the cheapest or lightest of options, but certainly a proven design concept. These existing systems also have appropriate "grid" or "bumper bar" attachments for the top of the array that makes attaching the array to the rigging simple and easily adjustable.

This is one of the things with what I suggested in the first post. The solution would undoubtably have to be made of some kind of metal.

[Fish]

It seems to me that one of the best solutions were if it was simple enough to just add steel hardware to the exterior of the loudspeakers in the same way the commercial manufacturers do. Admittedly, this is likely far from the cheapest or lightest of options, but certainly a proven design concept. These existing systems also have appropriate "grid" or "bumper bar" attachments for the top of the array that makes attaching the array to the rigging simple and easily adjustable.

This is one of the things with what I suggested in the first post. The solution would undoubtably have to be made of some kind of metal.

The key difference is that the commercial options create a rigid metal frame on the sides that "happen" to have loudspeakers attached in between, where your initial idea relies on a couple non-locking pins or bolts that appear to be the weakest link in the system. I'm figuring that they rely on the integrity of the wood of the cabinet in order to remain functional, which is the concern I have. Am I describing that clearly enough? Another way of looking at it is that you can completely remove a loudspeaker enclosure from the commercial solutions and the rigging doesn't need to be adjusted one bit and still just works; remove a middle loudspeaker from the strap concept as it currently exists and the rigging could easily just fall apart.

In rereading your initial post, I think some of the assumptions about N. Webber's system aren't quite correct. He stated that he assembled his entire rig all by himself, the parts are actually pretty easy to find (the previously-mentioned Penn-Elcom and ATM Flyware / Allen Products are two, available from Full Compass and others), and with different length wire rope assemblies for the rear you can pretty easily create J arrays with different angles. His system even has more safety features designed in to it than many other systems I've been involved with at shows, specifically the automatic safety lock-in at the "top beam."

Not being a structural engineer at all, I'm not sure just how for back you can safely pull an array with just wire rope, which is where a steel frame system inspires more confidence. Wire rope is also much easier to mishandle and thus destroy. Actually, Harley's customer's array is showing some interesting forces (gravity, straight down of course) pulling the third box from the top forward of the rest of the array. It's probably not the end of the world but likely isn't helping to maintain the line-source aspect of the array, especially for the higher frequencies.

I think DJPhatman and I are thinking along the same lines. I'm very interested in seeing this discussion result in a useful solution.

[Turntablist]

Actually, Harley's customer's array is showing some interesting forces (gravity, straight down of course) pulling the third box from the top forward of the rest of the array. It's probably not the end of the world but likely isn't helping to maintain the line-source aspect of the array, especially for the higher frequencies.

That's why I wrote in the original post that I would like to avoid the wire solution. A spiral array or a long J-array would suffer from what you described.
A steel construction that is attached to the sides won't work IMO as even a small difference from cab to cab would make it very hard to attach the hanging cabs to those above. A three point solution is thus needed and that's why I suggested to crossbreed my design with N.Webbers design. Metal brackets on the sides and a wire in the back.

Whatever one of the meantioned solutions so far here one would choose it would be expensive though and that's one thing that I'm trying to avoid. Bill's designs are meant to be the most cost-worthy ones on the market. With the solutions here so far the rigging hardware are about as much as the cab.

This is a really hard nut to crack and all solutions so far rely on virtually identical cabs and with DIY cabs that alone is hard to accomplish.. More thinking comin' right up!

[Harley]

Actually, Harley's customer's array is showing some interesting forces (gravity, straight down of course) pulling the third box from the top forward of the rest of the array.

This is the first lot of positioning my customer did, and then he sent me the pic, so that's why you would get that impression.

The arrangements we have on the backs of those cabs have plenty of adjustment so your concern is overcome, especially seeing a wire will run from the bottom most to the spreader.

[Mark Coward]

Here's 4 of my DR280s flow using Penn Flying track system

They aren't cheap. Parts alone cost about $US80 per set and there's 4 sets on each cab

For me there was freight, so I had to double the price ( to NZ ) as the parts are heavy

Nice work Harley. When you say 4 sets per cab, does that mean there are two on the back? If that's the case, wonder if you could use one of these per cab, say on the top. The other track mounted on the bottoms would allow for adjusment.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=262-050

rated 500 lb with backing plate

[Harley]

When you say 4 sets per cab, does that mean there are two on the back? If that's the case, wonder if you could use one of these per cab, say on the top. The other track mounted on the bottoms would allow for adjusment.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=262-050

rated 500 lb with backing plate

I suppose you could. The advantage of the two tracks on the back is that you can run a second straight line to secure at the top. Also, you get two lots of adjustment rather than one.

I have to make my next four for him identical, so it'll be the two tracks per back in any case.