A formula for speaker placement

[Landl.livesound]

To you Turbosound fans:

Where's any innovation? How do their speakers differ from Yamaha, JBL, Mackie, etc? They are nothing more than front loaded, ported boxes that can't be arrayed. But, Turbosound charges ~50% more for their cabs, ~$1000 for a 1X15!

Hey DJ Phatman,

I am guessing you aren't familiar with there horn-loaded systems or haven't mixed on a Turbo Flashlight/Floodlight rig. They are a fully horn-loaded system that was/is a very respectable system and surprisingly still is. If you walk into a 1500 cap venue with a Flashlight rig I would not turn it down and I am sure you would have no problem getting very nice sounding high SPL sound out of it with proper deployment/tuning.

What needs to be realized is that there is a lot more to price than may meet the eye. There is such things as product support, cross-rentability, well though and designed rigging, published polar/phase/impedance plots that some of the higher end companies offer.

BTW, most of their lines are on a much different level than Yamaha and Mackie, of course, I am guessing they have en entry level line which makes sense. But if you are serious about sound you would know to demo and not expect miracles out of an entry-level line. And ~$550 for their 12" TXD-121 cab and ~$650 for their 15" TXD-151 cab I wouldn't call that super expensive at all.

Again Turbosound is not an end all, be all but they have gear that is well worth the money and very well respected as you saw several respected people, like Ron K, let you know that they have some good stuff.

Take Care!

[Landl.livesound]

Phatman,

Seems Turbosound is the BOSE of pro, overpriced sameness.

Hey Wi,

That seems a bit off target, as Turbosound's stuff can actually sound pretty darn good, and their touring stuff would still not be turned down by a serious BE when used properly.

I am surprised by the "over-priced" comment of some. Their standard entry-level 12" box, TXD-121 is only ~$550 a box from your local dealer. I would not call that expensive by any means. That's the same price as JBL's MRX512 and less than their much more formidable SRX712. The price point of the TXD line actually seems right about in line with JBL's MRX line which I would call both entry level pro gear. Remember you get what you pay for 9 times out of 10 in pro audio.


Take Care!

[Turntablist]

Remember you get what you pay for 9 times out of 10 in pro audio.

With the usual manufacturing price/ resaler price ratio you'll pay five times the price it cost to build the thing.

IMO as long as the system that you are considering to buy do not have any really fancy software designed for it or feature a reliable and easy to work with rigging method one should DIY it if possible.

With the lower price range products I'd say your words that I quoted aren't true. 9 times out of 10 the manufacturer gives out BS specs.

[Landl.livesound]

Remember you get what you pay for 9 times out of 10 in pro audio.

With the lower price range products I'd say your words that I quoted aren't true. 9 times out of 10 the manufacturer gives out BS specs.

Hey Turntablist,

With very lower end products, exactly they *might* be more stretched than usual. That is exactly why you get what you pay for and tell people to skip the low end Gemini, Pyle audio, Samson, etc. And you step up the entry level pro gear in the $600-1200 a box depending on your needs. The trick that I try to use is try and find bang-to-buck gear that performs as well as gear slightly more expensive than it costs. Like buying a speaker that costs $1000 that is comparable to speakers in the $1200-1800 range. I would call that a bang-to-buck buy. 99% of the time there is a reason why that $1500 speaker costs, $1500. And there will be reasons why the $700 is $700 and not $1500. Again this applies to respectable companies that are in the real world "Pro audio market".


Also, realize that respected pro audio companies do not "make-up" specs out of thin air. What some will do is use their marketing department side to make it "look" better. These specs will not be made up, and not pure "BS". They will just have to be taken in context. That is why a competent spec interpreter, like yourself, will be able to tell what is a useful spec and what isn't. Don't worry I believe, it makes it harder to know what the specs mean, but in no way are, "Pulled out of air, pure BS" so to say. That is why demoing and using is always the best way to get a feel for a potential purchase.


One way they do this is I know JBL back a while ago would sometimes quote +-3dB mark but then give a -3dB mark in addition, which was not taken from the average sensitivity like it should be. But that -3dB point was taken from the +-3dB point. So that means on a flatter sub, like the SRX718 they could take 6dB off, which would cover "+-3dB" which would be true because it is +-3dB. But then they would take another 3dB down from that as the -3dB down. So it could be up to -9dB down from average sensitivity. All this info isn't pure BS you just have to know where it comes from. And with someone smart like yourself you can interpret the specs how you want to.

BTW, I have personally measured several SRX718 and they measure surprisingly almost exactly how JBL publishes in their spec sheet.

With the usual manufacturing price/ resaler price ratio you'll pay five times the price it cost to build the thing.

Yes they have to make money and not only pay to build it and for parts. But to pay for all the designers for all the R&D, since a pro audio company that is known for high quality products must put in a lot of R&D to make sure that they put out a high quality product that lasts. Plus the resale value of non-demo'ed, name brand cabs that have a good track record can stay pretty high. But almost no pro audio guy would buy a DIY rig without first hearing and playing with it himself, plus you might not be able to get as much as a well-known cab made to spec.

Of course you can still get good money for a well made DIY rig, Mr. Nightro on the DJ Forums got a good amount of money for his BFM subs, and a big reason for this was the person heard the rig and liked what he heard plus they were made professionally. Mr. Nightro is moving to a commercial horn-loaded sub so I am looking very forward to his thoughts there.


And that is exactly the thing you save a lot on in DIY is you use your own time to do the building. Your own time to order the pieces and all else that goes into it. I think that is a very interesting part of DIY, especially the learning that you do while building your own cab. Which I think is big plus for DIY that you can't learn by having a full-built and warrantied cabinet dropped off at your door. Convenient, Oh ya; Do you learn nearly as much by making sawdust and experimenting, no. It is all a trade-off like everything in audio.


Take Care!

[Landl.livesound]

It was a bit tongue in cheek, didn't mean to piss on the brand. They are responsible for some pretty timeless designs as you pointed out.

But so has bose hehe

I gotcha Wi, ya I looked at the price list for TXD and I was like, "Wow" that ain't to bad at all. I was looking at the their 12" monitor, TXD-12M, at one point and remember it was not bad at all.

Take Care!

[Greg Plouvier]

One of the best rigs I've heard to date was Iron Maiden's Turbo rig in the old McNichols arena, Denver. back in the 80's. One the engineers working for the company I was working for at that time knew IM's engineer and we got an invite to check it out. It wasn't ear splitting loud like you might expect. It was something like 48 or so TMS3 all horn loaded cabinets and horn subs. One the warmest, most articulate mixes I ever heard in that room. It just wrapped around you like a warm blanket. I've also mixed thru TMS3's and they are nice. Heavy as hell though. Most of their current tour cabs are horn loaded.

[SeisTres]

And that is exactly the thing you save a lot on in DIY is you use your own time to do the building. Your own time to order the pieces and all else that goes into it. I think that is a very interesting part of DIY, especially the learning that you do while building your own cab. Which I think is big plus for DIY that you can't learn by having a full-built and warrantied cabinet dropped off at your door. Convenient, Oh ya; Do you learn nearly as much by making sawdust and experimenting, no. It is all a trade-off like everything in audio.


Take Care!

+2 (one seemed too much, 3 seemed overkill )

I totally agree with this, and it is the reason why I have not told anyone that I know to start building speakers and have actually advised them to simply go to guitar center and pick what they need. DIY only works if the amount of time and effort put into the build is going to be more convenient to the user rather than just spending the cash on whatever it is they need.

There is absolutely no question at the performance that can be achieved with these DIY designs or other properly thought out designs, too. However, most people simply have no desire or need to learn anything more than how to hook up all the cables to their respective jacks. On the other side of things, as Landl pointed out, touring companies obviously prefer to spend more money to have consistency than save a few bucks by buying gear they might not be familiar with. Be it DIY cabs or mixmatched audio audio processing units.

However, moslty everyone here is not at those two extremes and DIY is the best solution for us. It provides us with high end performance for a price that we can afford. And not to mention moslty everyone here is hungry for information and want to learn. DIY only reinforces the learning, so for us, it is perfect, for 90% of others doing PA, not so much.

[SeisTres]

To truly learn however, a paranoia of the unknown and blind faith must be overcome.

Very true. But the weird thing is that the more I read and the more I learn and the more I dig into the unknown, the more I realize I should just have followed the plans exactly as they are

But believe me, if the need was great enough and I had funds to spare on transportation and roadies and was doing really big stuff, I would stop with DIY and just grab some Pi subs (I kinda fell for horn subs) and commercial arrayable cabs and be done with.

Like a said, before on some post a while ago, reproduction of sound is not an art, but a science which can be measured and accurately calculated (or even modeled now). All the words we use such as boomy, clear, transparent, defined, and so on, are only used not because they cannot be expressed with measurements but simply because most of us (including myself) do not have the knowledge or means to express it with graphs and numbers. So faith has nothing to do here

Of course this is the reproduction of sound, but EQ'ing to your tastes and mixing all the different instruments and giving life to each one, THAT's were the art is.

LOL, sorry, but your post makes it seem as if we're being inducted into a new religion or something of the sort.

That reminds me, the first time I heard about scientology I thought it was going to be right up my alley sine I though it was actually based on science or around it

Biggest fuking suprise i've had in a while.

[DJPhatman]

Hey DJ Phatman,
I am guessing you aren't familiar with there horn-loaded systems or haven't mixed on a Turbo Flashlight/Floodlight rig. They are a fully horn-loaded system that was/is a very respectable system and surprisingly still is. If you walk into a 1500 cap venue with a Flashlight rig I would not turn it down and I am sure you would have no problem getting very nice sounding high SPL sound out of it with proper deployment/tuning.
What needs to be realized is that there is a lot more to price than may meet the eye. There is such things as product support, cross-rentability, well though and designed rigging, published polar/phase/impedance plots that some of the higher end companies offer.
BTW, most of their lines are on a much different level than Yamaha and Mackie, of course, I am guessing they have en entry level line which makes sense. But if you are serious about sound you would know to demo and not expect miracles out of an entry-level line. And ~$550 for their 12" TXD-121 cab and ~$650 for their 15" TXD-151 cab I wouldn't call that super expensive at all.
Again Turbosound is not an end all, be all but they have gear that is well worth the money and very well respected as you saw several respected people, like Ron K, let you know that they have some good stuff.
Take Care!

All I can make my judgments(opinion) on, is what is available to me, the "week-end warrior", which is not anything Turbosound has that's horn loaded. When I was in the market for PA speakers, before I came here, there were not a whole lot of options available in an affordable system. I'm not, nor am I ever, trying to compete with sound companies that have to meet rider contracts. Why should I? I'm not looking to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars into a system. At the time I was shopping, Turbosound products that were available for retail sale (Guitar Center) were just over $1000 each for a 1X15 cab in blue. Subs were $1500 each. That's $7000, just in speaker cabs! Plus, they needed large amps (recommended amp was 800WRMS@8 Ohm) so now we are at $9000. 4 floor monitors and another amp, $14,000 total. What a joke! I could have done everything in JBL for half that. But I didn't. I found this site, and my eyes and ears have been opened. So now, weekend warriors can sound like a million, without spending 10% of one of those fine Turbosound systems. My 2 O10's and 2 T39s sound way better than the crap I could have bought retail.

You "Pro touring" guys need to step off your high horses for once, and remember that these designs were brought about by Bill to fill the need for great sound without the pro touring rig price.

[Landl.livesound]

And that is exactly the thing you save a lot on in DIY is you use your own time to do the building. Your own time to order the pieces and all else that goes into it. I think that is a very interesting part of DIY, especially the learning that you do while building your own cab. Which I think is big plus for DIY that you can't learn by having a full-built and warrantied cabinet dropped off at your door. Convenient, Oh ya; Do you learn nearly as much by making sawdust and experimenting, no. It is all a trade-off like everything in audio.


Take Care!

+2 (one seemed too much, 3 seemed overkill )

I totally agree with this, and it is the reason why I have not told anyone that I know to start building speakers and have actually advised them to simply go to guitar center and pick what they need. DIY only works if the amount of time and effort put into the build is going to be more convenient to the user rather than just spending the cash on whatever it is they need.

There is absolutely no question at the performance that can be achieved with these DIY designs or other properly thought out designs, too. However, most people simply have no desire or need to learn anything more than how to hook up all the cables to their respective jacks. On the other side of things, as Landl pointed out, touring companies obviously prefer to spend more money to have consistency than save a few bucks by buying gear they might not be familiar with. Be it DIY cabs or mixmatched audio audio processing units.

However, moslty everyone here is not at those two extremes and DIY is the best solution for us. It provides us with high end performance for a price that we can afford. And not to mention moslty everyone here is hungry for information and want to learn. DIY only reinforces the learning, so for us, it is perfect, for 90% of others doing PA, not so much.

Exactly, I agree with you as well. I see nothing wrong with DIY, and it can be a great option. I also think it is good to know what else is out there; why and how the higher end pro sound world works as a business even though we might not be at that level. (I'm not dragging out V-Dosc or Vertec rigs each weekend, but I do feel it is important to know theory behind it, why they are used, why larger companies invest in a system like that, and why a BE will put each down on their rider.)


Take Care!

[Landl.livesound]

All I can make my judgments(opinion) on, is what is available to me, the "week-end warrior", which is not anything Turbosound has that's horn loaded. When I was in the market for PA speakers, before I came here, there were not a whole lot of options available in an affordable system. I'm not, nor am I ever, trying to compete with sound companies that have to meet rider contracts. Why should I? I'm not looking to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars into a system. At the time I was shopping, Turbosound products that were available for retail sale (Guitar Center) were just over $1000 each for a 1X15 cab in blue. Subs were $1500 each. That's $7000, just in speaker cabs! Plus, they needed large amps (recommended amp was 800WRMS@8 Ohm) so now we are at $9000. 4 floor monitors and another amp, $14,000 total. What a joke! I could have done everything in JBL for half that. But I didn't. I found this site, and my eyes and ears have been opened. So now, weekend warriors can sound like a million, without spending 10% of one of those fine Turbosound systems. My 2 O10's and 2 T39s sound way better than the crap I could have bought retail.

You "Pro touring" guys need to step off your high horses for once, and remember that these designs were brought about by Bill to fill the need for great sound without the pro touring rig price.

Hey DJ Phatman,

Just for confirmation, I am not a regular pro touring guy although have been lucky enough to tech and mix on some larger rigs, but as I mention in my post right above this, I feel it is pertinent to be familiar with how the higher end touring business works, and why it works. Then you realize why people spend money on that gear. I do try to be honest with what is actually out there and how it compares in the real world.

On the Turbo rig your friend purchased, I would say they overpaid for it. I have never bought a speaker from GC so that is good reason why they paid a lot more.

But that same system (Turbo 2x15" and 2 subs.) prices out about $1300 for 2 tops (TXD-151) and $1500 for 2 subs (TXD-118, Assuming he bought the 2 18" and not 15" subs). Actually Turbo's base 2x18" sub is only about $1250 a piece.

So I find 2 Turbo 15" tops and 2 18" subs for $2800. That's not bad at all, or 2 15" tops and 2 dual 18" subs for $3800, which isn't bad at all either.

So I would say he majorly overpaid and this is more to do with buying from GC than from buying Turbosound. Their prices for the TXD line falls right within the JBL MRX.


So that's why it is good to do some research online to see what it actually costs even if you can't get a direct dealer quote. And also is good to not make an opinion on one instance. It helped to exactly show that if maybe you heard a Meyer rig that was setup by an average Joe bar band guy, you might hear that once and tell everyone that it sucks big time. Even though it wasn't Meyer's fault, it was the guy who set it up and mixed on it. That is why they don't try and sell to the average Joe bar band guy.


Take Care!

[DJPhatman]

Geez, I guess some guys just don't get it.

[Landl.livesound]

Geez, I guess some guys just don't get it.

?

[SeisTres]

Geez, I guess some guys just don't get it.

?

YAY!!!



LOL

[Landl.livesound]

Geez, I guess some guys just don't get it.

?

YAY!!!



LOL

Now we are getting somewhere!