Build Progress

Short and Transmission Line Arrays for Pros
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unkycraig
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Build Progress

#1 Post by unkycraig » Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:13 am

Today no questions.

Just some SLA Pro 4x6 pics. This build was very easy compared to that Tuba 24. Some wise forum members talked me out of a DR250 build for an upcoming event, there just isn't the time. I'm still building the DR250s next year.

Crap, Im' gonna sneak one question in here. I'm wondering would the SLA PRO 4x6, stack/play well with a pair of DR250 and 2(4) Tuba24s?

I'm imagining: Tuba 24x2(2 more coming), DR 250x2, SLAPRO(4x6)x2, and QSC GX7 amps x2.

The SLA PRO 4x6 plans talk about adding a pair of SLA PRO 2x4s for stacking. 2x4 on bottom toed in, with a 4x6 on top. The plan does not mention pairing 2 sets of SLA PRO 4x6? i'm guessing the ohms might drop too much.

If they would work together well, the 2 pairs of SLAPRO 4x6 would vertical mounted? Would there be any benefit to side by side mounting, with maybe just a smidge of angle away from each other, 10 degrees either way? Dare I ask if they could be stacked horizontally on their sides (array) like two eight eyed monster spider faces? It seems like those tweeters could do more damage up front, before thirty feet out.

Things keep changing right in the middle of the build and I have to consider the whole system and where to go next. Do I just forget about the DR250 and just, once again, stick to Bill's plan? Make the 2x4 SLA PROs and two more tubas to expand the SLA PRO 4x6 system? Make a separate system that is DR250-centric?

So... Tuba 24 x2, SLA PRO 4x6 x2, SLA pro 2x4 x2, two amps getting 700-1000watts out. This seems to be the set up for a SLA PRO based mid system. Yes?

To try and squeeze in DR250 in there somewhere?

enuf....here's some pics. This was a satisfying easy build. Thanks Seth and Bruce for suggesting it.
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In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

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unkycraig
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 pm
Location: El Cerrito, CA

Re: Build Progress

#2 Post by unkycraig » Fri Nov 05, 2021 11:44 am

I was happy to see that 2 SLA PROs barely take up 1/2 a sheet of ply. ECONO!!!
In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Build Progress

#3 Post by Tom Smit » Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:22 pm

Yes, you can stack on 4x6 on top of another 4x6, and that would make an 8x6. With a 2x6 under a 4x6, you would have a 6x6. Having 2 sets of each will be quite utile. Do not lay them on their sides lest you want to have a narrow beam in width, of highs.
Good work so far.
TomS

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Seth
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Re: Build Progress

#4 Post by Seth » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:27 am

Craig, that's coming together nicely! Good job man!

SLA Pro's have no business being used with any of the DR series designs. Yes, you can play them together, just the same as you could toss a pair of home speakers in the pile and sound would occur. But for best results, use DR250's with DR250's. SLA Pro's with SLA Pro's. My guess is you'd encounter a few troublesome phase cancellations in the mid range if you tried to mix them. You would probably be able to use the SLA Pro's as side fills without issue, with DR's on main PA duty.

A "line array" is a purposeful design that places all the drivers in a vertical column. There are a lot of benefits to the line array arrangement. Do a little research on "Cluster Array", "Line Array", and "Spiral Array". Placing speakers side-by-side is typically poo-poo'd here. And for good reason too. You want to stack vertically, and if you need more horizontal coverage, independently rotate or pan the stacked cabs in or out to get the coverage you desire.

Honestly, if you get around to completing some DR's, you'll probably want to build some T39's to run with them... or another 4 (8 total) T24's.

Sending you a PM with my contact info.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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unkycraig
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Location: El Cerrito, CA

Re: Build Progress

#5 Post by unkycraig » Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:51 pm

Seth wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:27 am
Craig, that's coming together nicely! Good job man!

SLA Pro's have no business being used with any of the DR series designs. Yes, you can play them together, just the same as you could toss a pair of home speakers in the pile and sound would occur. But for best results, use DR250's with DR250's. SLA Pro's with SLA Pro's. My guess is you'd encounter a few troublesome phase cancellations in the mid range if you tried to mix them. You would probably be able to use the SLA Pro's as side fills without issue, with DR's on main PA duty.

A "line array" is a purposeful design that places all the drivers in a vertical column. There are a lot of benefits to the line array arrangement. Do a little research on "Cluster Array", "Line Array", and "Spiral Array". Placing speakers side-by-side is typically poo-poo'd here. And for good reason too. You want to stack vertically, and if you need more horizontal coverage, independently rotate or pan the stacked cabs in or out to get the coverage you desire.

Honestly, if you get around to completing some DR's, you'll probably want to build some T39's to run with them... or another 4 (8 total) T24's.

Sending you a PM with my contact info.

"SLA Pro's have no business being used with any of the DR series designs."

^^^^see right there^^^^ that is good information!^^^^

The DR 250 is what started all this. Kinda glad to let that go, for now. It'll be the second rig I build. I was getting a headache thinking of all the things that could not go well, and alI didn't have the terminology to complain about it. I have enough ply left over to start some little 2x6 driver SLA PRO to bottom stack. Seems like a fine little rig. Just have to see if I can source some more drivers. I've been having luck finding Alpha 6s.
In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

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Seth
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Re: Build Progress

#6 Post by Seth » Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:41 pm

unkycraig wrote:
Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:51 pm
"SLA Pro's have no business being used with any of the DR series designs."

^^^^see right there^^^^ that is good information!^^^^

The DR 250 is what started all this. Kinda glad to let that go, for now. It'll be the second rig I build. I was getting a headache thinking of all the things that could not go well, and alI didn't have the terminology to complain about it. I have enough ply left over to start some little 2x6 driver SLA PRO to bottom stack. Seems like a fine little rig. Just have to see if I can source some more drivers. I've been having luck finding Alpha 6s.
A couple SLA Pro's and 4x T24's will be a great little system that's fairly potent and fairly portable. If you want or need more capability in the future, the SLA Pro/T24 system would make a fantastic "B" rig that would likely rival and best the average gigging band's main PA rig. Adding a pair of 2x6 SLA Pro's will add a lot of versatility to the kit.

As far as this first rig goes, I'd definitely focus on the second pair of T24's before a pair of 2x6 SLA's. Without the additional T24's, you won't really utilize the potential the initial SLA's have to offer. I noticed Parts Express now has the KL3010LF's in stock. Perhaps your order with Leland is soon to ship? Unless you took advantage of some of the other sources and got them already.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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unkycraig
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Location: El Cerrito, CA

Re: Build Progress

#7 Post by unkycraig » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:47 pm

Leland has been busy soldering PCBs, I've got some XOs/filters on the way. I have a mountain of drivers right now, all I need. The wiring is about all that is left. Still in line, like everyone else for Eminence, the original drivers order. Those will be for the other Tuba 24s to be built.
In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

User avatar
unkycraig
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 pm
Location: El Cerrito, CA

Re: Build Progress

#8 Post by unkycraig » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:21 pm

Well fired 'em up, very nice. That's two Tuba 24s-18 inches wide, inside the cab of a Tacoma in the jump seat, and two SLA Pros thrown on top. I had to store them out of the way so made an 8 foot 10 array. It's going to be a shame to paint these.
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In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

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Seth
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Re: Build Progress

#9 Post by Seth » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:19 am

Craig, that's awesome man! Great job gitn'r done :thumbsup:

So... you have the artist's eye, eh? I've always found paint (Duratex) to be one of the most satisfying parts of the build. But, over the years, many other people have chosen much more artistic approaches to finishing the cabs. No one says they have to look like everything else out there. I prefer mine to look the standard part, but your ideal may be unique. I look forward to seeing your cabs finished, however that ends up being. :thumbsup:

What was your impression when you fired them up? Did you set up any of the limiting and EQ at all?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

User avatar
unkycraig
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:09 pm
Location: El Cerrito, CA

Re: Build Progress

#10 Post by unkycraig » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:41 pm

Thanks! And thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

We set it up a few different ways, and the driverack was its own challenge. Had to figure out that mutes do what they are told, moved the subs a few times for the RTA mic, just navigating another screen....hateful(sure, it worked well tho, once we caught up to it). Then we transferred all the EQ info over to the analog 31 band and the old rack analog XO, and ran that for a while. It's way easier to just run that wizard, but It is kind of more satisfying to have that aural/tactile feedback of sliding a fader and hearing your changes. This was just running program material basically, Earthwindandfireseptember over and over. Next practice we will set up the big board and sound check. Need to buy more coffee to brew, lots of more work to do.

It sounded clean as hell. Sweeping the crossover between 80-120 was interesting. Man...it had us thinking it was under powered. We kept looking at our gain structure. Was this system under powered? Nope, it's just clear and it doesn't hurt. We went outside and checked, we could hear it everywhere. It wasn't what we expected. I think it's better. We will know for sure if the vocals can't get louder than the guitars. I think it's fine, I'm just over thinking it because so much went wrong prior to running it.

Well, paint 'em black, that will cover up my first build sins. The next years build will be T39( I want to see if they out run the tubas) and some DR250s. Those are going to be birch or similar ply, super fancy, just clear varnished, will custom make hardware, and grills. These will be for "Special" eye candy occasions. Get to charge extra for handling, HA! That build will be the deciding factor to see if I task Bill to sell me a franchise. This build was fraught with supply chain woes and huge gaps of time in between steps. I'm looking forward to a "normal" build, if that exists.

I am going to choose a few models to build and make templates, this will turn weeks into days.
In Progress: Omni 12 Tallboy Bass
Complete: 2 Tuba 24, 2 SLA PRO 4x6

In the wings: DR250, Wedgehorn 10, More Tubas, More SLAs

Dbx Driverack PA2
Dbx EQs 215, 2231
Dbx X-O 223xs
3 QSC GX7
3 JBL JRX212s

User avatar
Seth
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Re: Build Progress

#11 Post by Seth » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:13 am

unkycraig wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:41 pm
Thanks! And thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it!

We set it up a few different ways, and the driverack was its own challenge. Had to figure out that mutes do what they are told, moved the subs a few times for the RTA mic, just navigating another screen....hateful(sure, it worked well tho, once we caught up to it). Then we transferred all the EQ info over to the analog 31 band and the old rack analog XO, and ran that for a while. It's way easier to just run that wizard, but It is kind of more satisfying to have that aural/tactile feedback of sliding a fader and hearing your changes. This was just running program material basically, Earthwindandfireseptember over and over. Next practice we will set up the big board and sound check. Need to buy more coffee to brew, lots of more work to do.

It sounded clean as hell. Sweeping the crossover between 80-120 was interesting. Man...it had us thinking it was under powered. We kept looking at our gain structure. Was this system under powered? Nope, it's just clear and it doesn't hurt. We went outside and checked, we could hear it everywhere. It wasn't what we expected. I think it's better. We will know for sure if the vocals can't get louder than the guitars. I think it's fine, I'm just over thinking it because so much went wrong prior to running it.

Well, paint 'em black, that will cover up my first build sins. The next years build will be T39( I want to see if they out run the tubas) and some DR250s. Those are going to be birch or similar ply, super fancy, just clear varnished, will custom make hardware, and grills. These will be for "Special" eye candy occasions. Get to charge extra for handling, HA! That build will be the deciding factor to see if I task Bill to sell me a franchise. This build was fraught with supply chain woes and huge gaps of time in between steps. I'm looking forward to a "normal" build, if that exists.

I am going to choose a few models to build and make templates, this will turn weeks into days.
I haven't used a Driverack specifically. I have a similar model from another manufacturer and I completely understand. Wrapping my mind around all the functions and accessing them through all the buttons and knobs on the front is a challenge every time I use it. I printed the manual up, put it in a binder that I keep with all the gear, and also put a PDF version of the manual in my phone. It's one of the rare occasions that consulting the manual for something is useful and much quicker than fumbling through the functions trying to remind myself how to do what I want to do. Many times, I've found the tablet or computer interfaces are easier to work with and make much more sense than the working from front panel of the unit itself. I recommend you try using their app on a tablet. Everything may be considerably more intuitive.

One thing you absolutely want to do is get the limiter set up for the T24's. With the power you have, you could easily blow the drivers without any warning. Horn loaded subs typically play clean and loud even when pushed beyond their limits and will give little to no warning signs before they let the magic smoke out and stop working.

DO NOT set the limiter with the method outlined in the instructions that came with the Driverack. Setting the limiter up that way will not protect your drivers from being overpowered.

Here's the steps for setting your limiters;

1) Disconnect your T24's from the power amplifier. You don't need or want them connected for these steps.
2) Set a Digital Multimeter to read AC Volts and connect it to the amplifier output
3) Turn the amps input gains all the way up
4) Play a 60 Hz sine wave through the system (you can find tone generators online or in audio apps on your phone or tablet or even search YouTube for "60Hz sine wave")
5) Increase the source volume (whatever you're playing the sine wave from/through... mixer, phone, pc, whatever it is) until the multimeter reads more than your target limiter value. In your case, more than 45volts for the Kapa Pro 10 or more than 55volts for the KL3010LF in a T24.
6) In the limiter settings of the Driverack, verify that the attack is set at it's minimum value, then reduce and adjust the threshold until the voltage indicated on the multimeter reads as close to your target value as possible without going over. A volt or 2 under isn't a big deal, you won't miss it (less than a half dB at max volume).
7) Once the threshold is set, increase the source volume. The voltage reading on the multimeter should not increase. Then turn the volume down and swiftly turn it back up a time or three to verify that the voltage does not exceed the target value. It shouldn't. And if that's the case, you're all set. Turn the volume down, power the amp off, and reconnect your T24's.

I seem to recall that there's a setting in the Driverack limiter called "overeasy" or something like that. I'm fairly certain you want that turned off. Perhaps Bruce will verify that...




T24 vs. T39



If you took the drivers out of your T24's and put them in 20" wide T39's, it would roughly be equivalent to doubling your count of T24's. Roughly. It would take about 8 T24's (along with twice the total system power) to keep up with 4 T39's with the same drivers. Another perspective... 4 T39's running at 25% power would roughly match 4 T24's at maximum power, with the same drivers. Build and load them with 3012LF's instead of the 10's and the difference is even greater.

As always, build max width cabs if you can. If venue placement or transport limitations prohibit max width cabs as an option, build as wide as you can.



SLA SQ and Volume
The SLA's should be able to easily keep up with guitar amps, unless SLA placement and/or venue acoustics prohibits achieving sufficient volume before feedback. In which case you'd need to ring them out. But, from what I understand, the feedback suppression in the Driverack is very effective. Learn to use it, and you should have no problem getting the volume you need and expect.

I know exactly what you're talking about, about them not "sounding loud". Clean sound takes a little getting used to. We're so used to loud sounding loud (distorted) that when it's not distorted, it doesn't seem as loud. You nailed it. It is loud. Loud as all get out. It's just not distorted. Once you get used to it, you wont be able to hear music through poor quality setups without being distracted by the distortion. You'll likely critique every venue you visit for the rest of your life. Suppose we should have warned you about that beforehand. :mrgreen:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Build Progress

#12 Post by Bruce Weldy » Fri Nov 26, 2021 9:35 am

Seth's instructions are good, but I'll chime in with a little more detail below......

1) Disconnect your T24's from the power amplifier. You don't need or want them connected for these steps.
Be sure that you turn off the AFS in the Driverack, otherwise it will see the test tone as feedback and kill it.....ask me how I know....
2) Set a Digital Multimeter to read AC Volts and connect it to the amplifier output
3) Turn the amps input gains all the way up
4) Play a 60 Hz sine wave through the system (you can find tone generators online or in audio apps on your phone or tablet or even search YouTube for "60Hz sine wave")
5) Increase the source volume (whatever you're playing the sine wave from/through... mixer, phone, pc, whatever it is) until the multimeter reads more than your target limiter value. In your case, more than 45volts for the Kapa Pro 10 or more than 55volts for the KL3010LF in a T24.
I'd approach this a little differently - set your master fader to unity, then increase the test tone's input until the master meter is hitting a little above unity.....mainly this just gives you a visual cue to when you are about to hit the limiter when you are mixing. Once this is done move on to the next step
6) In the limiter settings of the Driverack, verify that the attack is set at it's minimum value, then reduce and adjust the threshold until the voltage indicated on the multimeter reads as close to your target value as possible without going over. A volt or 2 under isn't a big deal, you won't miss it (less than a half dB at max volume).
7) Once the threshold is set, increase the source volume. The voltage reading on the multimeter should not increase. Then turn the volume down and swiftly turn it back up a time or three to verify that the voltage does not exceed the target value. It shouldn't. And if that's the case, you're all set. Turn the volume down, power the amp off, and reconnect your T24's.
It is really easier than outlined in 6 and 7 on the Driverack. As Seth said, make sure that overeasy is turned off and that the compressor it turned off. You have to scroll all the way through to the limiter. Once there, just adjust the gain until the voltmeter shows what ever voltage you want for the drivers you are using - that's in your plans. You shouldn't have to mess with attack or threshold. Once that voltage is showing on your voltmeter, push the master faded up quickly while watching the voltmeter. The reading should not change. If it stays at your target voltage - then you are done.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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