Another Californian

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bldr
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Another Californian

#1 Post by bldr » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:04 am

Greetings all.

After lurking the site and re-re-re-re-re-reading tons of build threads and plan descriptions I figured it was high time to finally get on the forum.

I have been tucking away some of my spending money to upgrade my current soundsystem and need to get serious about figuring out what the "right" plan is.
What I lack in wood working skills/experience I make up in being overly analytical and overthinking problems, though I can usually, eventually, transition from spreadsheet to reality.

I like showing movies in the backyard (birthdays, holidays, pool parties, etc.) and I currently have a 12ft screen with a pair of Panasonic/Ramsa WS-AT200 tops and 4xWS-A240 subs. After finding BFM I got it into my head that it would be a great project to build some speakers to replace what I currently have. In fact I first found BFM looking at subs as I orginally had zero. One day I stumbled into a deal to pick up the four subs which was "too good no to" ($80 total), but I am not convinced that I even got my money's worth at that price.
SPL specs, which don't factor in the random car audio replacement driver that "farts" when it really gets bumping:
ws-at200.PNG
ws-a240.PNG
What really brings me to the forum (other than the hope that some day soon I will have my own build thread(s)) is that I am struggling to make a plan - or at least be comfortable with my plan.
I have been thinking SLA Pros - but am unsure if 2x6 is enough or if I should dive in and go 4x6.
Likewise I feel totally unable to figure out the best sub plan. I don't think I can handle the size/weight of T30s so was thinking the low end would be (2x) T24 or T39 (drivers?). I have read the advice - extension vs output - and have looked through the SPL charts, but I don't feel comfortable to how that translates into reality. Most of the focus seems to, rightly, be on max SPL. Max SPL makes sense to me if you are setting up in lots of venues and need to be preapred for anything-ish, but too many options starts to get confusing to me and I spin-out and realize I am not smart enough to figure this out on my own.

I do live in a residentia/suburban neighborhood where being niehgborly matters (to my SO), but we don't mind being a reasonalbe level of loud before 10pm. Movie viewing area is usually around 40ftx60ft and when its kids.famileis we can have 50-75 people - for that space I don't really have a good grasp on what is loud enough vs too loud. Certainly don't mind a significant amount of headroom for helping out with events (chruch/family/etc) other places and I don't ever expect to handle live sound.

Do the plans themselves help shed any light on these conundrums? Should I just buy the CD? Overall cost and complexity is a factor (of course) as I can do basic wood working, but it is definitly not my primary skillset.
I have a circular saw, a jigsaw, and a brad nailer as well as access to a router (transportable) and a table saw (not transportable) if any of that makes a significant difference.


Enough rambling - Big thanks to Bill & everyone's awesome forum posts & builds - so much lovely craftsmandship and inspiration here.


-Jordan

Seth
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Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Re: Another Californian

#2 Post by Seth » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:19 am

Hey Jordan, I'm Seth. Welcome to the forum.

What part of Sac are you in? I'm down in Lodi now, but was in Rosemont off 50 & Watt 10 or so years ago.

BTW, I'd recommend getting the CD. Decent reading material if your into stuff like that.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Grant Bunter
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Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
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Re: Another Californian

#3 Post by Grant Bunter » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:16 am

G'day Jordan, and welcome to the forum :)

I'm not exactly sure what the SPL chart is you've posted up, but it's falling like a rock from 100Hz down, and that is sub territory.
You need to get a pretty firm idea in your head about what your budget is, it's really easy to dismiss budget until you do some sums ;)
You might need to factor in what you're going to run this new system with as well.
Are you currently running everything off a home theatre device?

Any and all information at this point of time is gold...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

bldr
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Another Californian

#4 Post by bldr » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:31 pm

Seth -
I am in Roseville myself. I had been thinking that the CD was worth the money just to have have everything. I have seen the talk of driver specs, voltage limits, etc. so maybe all those aspects of the plans are part of what I am missing in my analysis. Long term I could see a couple more "needs" for different cabinets anyway and besides my dr. recommended I get a hobby - so maybe that justifies raiding the medical bills budget for plywood and drivers...


Grant -
I would say I currently run hobbist sound - somewhere in-between home theater and Pro Sound
Top line in the top chart is the published chart for my current tops.
Bottom chart is the published specs for my subs - (4ea 12" bass reflex cabs).
Audio runs as such: Projector Line-out => DBX223 Crossover => Alesis RA-100 (tops) & Crown CE-1000 (subs)
Long term I figure the RA-100 will need to be replaced for something more powerful - as well as swapping the crossover for a driverack or a dcx2496.

Part of my thinking around a pair of T24s was, could I get more bang for the space since 2xT24-16" is really close to the same space as the current 4 reflex cabs? I might be able to go bigger - but keeping it about the same pack size adds some WAF as there is already storage space allocated - height may not matter as much as actual on floor sq footage.


Budget has some flexibility depending on what I can get for my money and how it all works into a long-term plan.
For example is it better to do a singles sub today with a premium driver and delay building a second sub vs. two subs today with cheaper drivers.
Initial round of investment would probably need to be under $500 - but good outcomes sometimes free up more money for continued investment.



Thanks
-Jordan

jemo1234567890
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Another Californian

#5 Post by jemo1234567890 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:52 pm

bldr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:31 pm
I had been thinking that the CD was worth the money just to have have everything. I have seen the talk of driver specs, voltage limits, etc. so maybe all those aspects of the plans are part of what I am missing in my analysis.
Hi Jordan,

I recommend you to buy the CD.
I ordered only six plans last year and I'm thinking to buy the hole CD nonetheless because I would like to read in the plans of some other interesting cabinets and maybe learn a little more things in detail.
And who knows what future brings and which cabs I will need in the future on top :lol:

Best regards
Josh

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Chris_Allen
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Re: Another Californian

#6 Post by Chris_Allen » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:56 pm

Hi,

I would say that just two T39's with 3012LFs would provide more output and go lower than your current subs. They would probably be smaller too. The limitation with the T24's is the choice of driver. If you really need to go that low, take a look at the T45.

Chris
Built:
6xDR200, 2xT39, 2xT48, 2xJack110, 1xOmni10.5, 1xAutotuba, 1xT18, 1xSLA Pro, 1xW8, 1xW10

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 7567
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Another Californian

#7 Post by Bruce Weldy » Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:25 pm

bldr wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:31 pm

For example is it better to do a singles sub today with a premium driver and delay building a second sub vs. two subs today with cheaper drivers.
Initial round of investment would probably need to be under $500 - but good outcomes sometimes free up more money for continued investment.

Certainly it's better to build one sub with the premium driver than going with the cheap drivers. You most likely can get away with just a single sub in the middle. Even with 50 people, I'm assuming that they are all close to the screen and you aren't trying to shake the ground (which you aren't going to do outside anyway).

If you are trying to stay in a $500 budget, then I'd say build a T48 with a 3015LF and pick up a used Driverack. That would give you limiting for your sub and it will go a bit lower than the T39. Your current amps are probably fine for pulling this off. The driverack will also do a better job as a crossover than your current and also add EQ to the mix.

As your budget increases, then you can add some SLA Pros and maybe upgrade amps.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

jimbo7
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Location: St. Louis

Re: Another Californian

#8 Post by jimbo7 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:07 pm

I agree with Chris and Bruce. You can't go wrong with a Titan if it'll be multipurpose. Buy a driverack or equivalent, keep the amp, get rid of crossover, premium driver, then shake and bake. And get the CD. You'll wanna build everything else after your first project.

As far as tops; SLA Pro's will work great for your needs. They're more "modular" in a sense that if you don't need to melt faces off you can run a pair and add more as needed. And they take up less space compared to other models. Price-wise they fall in the lower to middle range depending on driver and parts selection.
BFM builds:
XF212
T24 BP102 24"
2x SLA's 6-5" mids, 9- gt-302's
2x AT 14" MCM 55-2421
TrT 5" MCM 55-2421
AT 18" JBL GTO804
2x OT12 flat array
2x SLA Pro 2-Alpha 6's 2-Goldwoods
2x T39 24" 3012lf
Simplex 10 BP102

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Tom Smit
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Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Another Californian

#9 Post by Tom Smit » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:41 pm

Jordan, welcome to the forum!
Like everyone else, so far, I suggest getting the CD.
For subs, my thought was the T45 since it can reach down lower for the movies. If not that, then the T48. Premium drivers. Buy once, cry once.
TomS

bldr
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Another Californian

#10 Post by bldr » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:07 pm

Sounds like the consensus is to get the CD, which I had been considering. I figure worst case Bill gets paid closer to what a set of plans is worth.

Super low isn't a top priority - reasonably low works for me and needs to be a balance with overall output and storage space my ability to move things.
This is for family & friend events, weekend pool parties etc. so moving big subs is not a normal event for me so I need to make sure things are manageable.
I have found the easier the setup/take-down the more we use things, so moving more smaller things is often more doable than moving around a single big (2-person) thing.
Audience can be reasonably expected to be front and center, often with diminishing interest as you move back through the audience (especially on the kid movies when you get back to the adult section).


Tom -
I have seen "Buy once, cry once" in reference to spending the money - but my back is very afraid of having big heavy sub(s) to move.
Admittedly now that I look at the charts for the big boys the T30/45/48 definitely look they produce the goods. But the space and the weight scare me.


Would it make sense to setup my existing equipment and play music/movie/tone and measure what dB/distance is quiet/reasonable/loud/too loud of a volume in the space?
Could I then use that to figure out a little better what makes sense or is excess? Any thoughts or tips there?

Bruce Weldy
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Another Californian

#11 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:29 pm

bldr wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:07 pm
now that I look at the charts for the big boys the T30/45/48 definitely look they produce the goods. But the space and the weight scare me.
I'd drop off the T30 and 34 because they are hard to move. The T39 and the T48 are easily rolled if you use the casters that are called for in the plans - it's an easy one man move. If you really don't need huge low-end extension, then go with the T39. Build it at least 24 inches wide and it will do a good job for that setup and it's easy to move......I know, I have 6 of 'em....and I'm old.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Another Californian

#12 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:31 pm

bldr wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:07 pm
Sounds like the consensus is to get the CD, which I had been considering. I figure worst case Bill gets paid closer to what a set of plans is worth.
If the CD sold based on what the content is worth the price would have another zero on the end. I sell it for what I do because I know the chances of anyone building more than ten of the projects is nil, and I'm OK with giving people a way to see all of the projects so they can pick and choose the right ones for their needs.

Seth
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Re: Another Californian

#13 Post by Seth » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:50 pm

Jordan, how close to the screen is the nearest and furthest person in the "viewing area"?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

bldr
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Another Californian

#14 Post by bldr » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:31 pm
If the CD sold based on what the content is worth the price would have another zero on the end. I sell it for what I do because I know the chances of anyone building more than ten of the projects is nil, and I'm OK with giving people a way to see all of the projects so they can pick and choose the right ones for their needs.
Seems like more than a fair deal (as is, please don't add trailing zeros to the CD price).

bldr
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:28 am
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Another Californian

#15 Post by bldr » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:08 pm

SethRocksYou wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:50 pm
Jordan, how close to the screen is the nearest and furthest person in the "viewing area"?
that is probably 8-10 feet on the close end
and probably 40-50ft on the far end

If things can be really bumping 20ft out, I would think that is pretty solid for my usual needs.

Folks can be further away, but that is usually groups less interested in the movie

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