Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

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tactix
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Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#1 Post by tactix » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:00 pm

Hi all,
I’m a Jamaican music aficionado who currently finds himself in Columbus, Ohio. There isn’t really a reggae sound system playing out here that I can go listen to so I’m taking matters into my own hands. I’ve been playing some DJ gigs here with a couple fellow travelers and we’re ready to take it to the next level and start piecing a sound together. I have a general understanding of PA systems and how to put one together but I definitely have a lot to learn. Lurking on this forum for the last six weeks or so has both made that clear and helped me immensely. I look forward to engaging with you all and plan to solicit your advice on a number of topics!
The current plan is to build up a system slowly starting with a pair of Tuba 30s. We have a set of Nady cabs to pair them with off the get go but the medium term plan is to build a pair of Omnitop 12s to replace them and a couple more T30s…

Cheers,
Jake

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DJPhatman
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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#2 Post by DJPhatman » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:58 pm

Jake, welcome to the fun addiction! :cowboy:

Sounds like you have a good plan. The 2 things I would suggest is build some DR250s instead of OTop 12s. A lot more time consuming, but well worth the extra work.



See that 6dB@80Hz gap? No matter where you cross over to the subs, the DR250 will do it better.

And T39 over T30 with the 3012LF. While the T30 is better below 38Hz, the T39 more than makes up for it in SPL above 38Hz.



NOTE: Both subs are 30" wide, 3012LF loaded for equal comparison.
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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tactix
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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#3 Post by tactix » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:57 am

Thank you for the warm welcome,
I would suggest is build some DR250s instead of OTop 12s. A lot more time consuming, but well worth the extra work.
Maybe I'll give that a try - I have access to a CNC and know my way around cad so perhaps after giving the Tubas a go I'll reassess with the Dr250 plans in hand and see if it feels doable. Right now it seems like a daunting task.
While the T30 is better below 38Hz, the T39 more than makes up for it in SPL above 38Hz.
As I mentioned in the Tuba/Titan forum I'm concerned about losing those lower frequencies as there's a lot of reggae down there :)

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:30 am

tactix wrote:I'm concerned about losing those lower frequencies as there's a lot of reggae down there
Not as much as you might think. The benchmark reggae bass cab is the SVT, it has a 58Hz f3. I measured The Wailers at a major concert venue, their low end peaked at 50Hz.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#5 Post by tactix » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:15 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
tactix wrote:I'm concerned about losing those lower frequencies as there's a lot of reggae down there
Not as much as you might think. The benchmark reggae bass cab is the SVT, it has a 58Hz f3. I measured The Wailers at a major concert venue, their low end peaked at 50Hz.
I have no doubt that this is true. It's more of the digital productions I was thinking of. I really noticed it when listening to the vinyl version of this tune https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmIOeNh_4cg but even listening to an 70's Aswad production I noticed I felt the sound was thinner when rolled off at 45Hz. No where near as dramatic as the digi stuff but still noticeable.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#6 Post by Think » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:29 pm

Welcome here!

You can't compare Youtube with vinyl as a lot of details are lost due to the compression YT uses. Better compare a CD or make/rip a flac or HQ MP3 from the LP. My experience is that digital sounds clearer and cooler (not warm), more HIFI. There are several ways to put back some warmth or other likable distortion, back in the mix.....

Also keep in mind that with vinyl the highpass for the bass is a must to prevent 'feedback' (this might be called differently). T60's/ very low bass and vinyl are not an easy combination if you want to play at high volume.

//edit: putting your speakers in the right location is 10x (or more) important not to kill 'the feel' of the sound than analogy vs digital. Especially the subs, which I 'see' as the fundation of the sound. RTA (adjusting the output of your speakers to the sound of the room) is 2nd most important to me and then come's choice of speakers.

///edit: and very very last come speaker cables: any copper or even aluminium foil :lol: cable thick enough is fine. Don't spend your money there!!
I recently got some very nice speakon connectors and sockets on ebay from china for 1/5 of the price in a European webshop... send to my home free of charge.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#7 Post by tactix » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:47 pm

Think wrote:Welcome here!

You can't compare Youtube with vinyl as a lot of details are lost due to the compression YT uses. Better compare a CD or make/rip a flac or HQ MP3 from the LP. My experience is that digital sounds clearer and cooler (not warm), more HIFI. There are several ways to put back some warmth or other likable distortion, back in the mix.....

Also keep in mind that with vinyl the highpass for the bass is a must to prevent 'feedback' (this might be called differently). T60's/ very low bass and vinyl are not an easy combination if you want to play at high volume.

Thanks for the welcome, Think. BTW I was working with a vinyl rip I made using a phono preamp I have with a built in AD converter - not the You tube link (to the same song) I sent. At any rate it's clear that the highpass on the bass frequencies are going to be key. Thanks for this and the tip for the speakon connectors - those cables do seem to be terribly overpriced in general.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#8 Post by wilkins1kc » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 am

My experience with unbranded Speakons and XLRs has not been good. I've now changed them all out for Neutriks. The generic copies were fine for a while but various issues happened over time.

Probably there are good and bad low cost ones, but it seems a bit of a gamble.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#9 Post by Think » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:54 pm

Then you alleady did your comparison allmost as good as it gets. Maybe you can find a flac file or CD of the song which might me better.

The highpass filter is essential for all ported (bass reflex) and horn subs and maybe others, if you want to use them at more then 1/4 (to be safe) of full power.

When playing LP's near subs without highpass, the needle tends to pickup noise and can even slide all over the record.
Maybe others have some more info on this in depth.
But when I was asked to set up at a club, they told me that they had lots of problems playing vinyl. They used 4 18 subs of which I only used 2 and put them in a corner instead of left and right of the DJ Booth and put a very steep 30hz or so (can't remember) high pass on them.
Used a PA2 instead of the build in crap-overs, also RTA-ed this reflective brick wall 'dungeon' and everybody was very happy.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#10 Post by DJPhatman » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:07 am

tactix wrote:As I mentioned in the Tuba/Titan forum I'm concerned about losing those lower frequencies as there's a lot of reggae down there :)
You need to look at the SPL chart I posted again. The T39 beats the T30 all the way down to 32Hz. The difference is the T39 gives you the extra SPL where you need it. The extension over SPL argument has been hashed over so much, it's mind numbing. Build T39s.

If you really, really, just gotta have that tiny bit of extension, build T48s, they really beat the T30, at the expense of a slightly larger box (48"x24"x24"). T30 at 30" wide is 15.625 cubic feet, T48 at 24" wide is 16 cubic feet.

I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#11 Post by tactix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:05 am

DJPhatman wrote:
tactix wrote:As I mentioned in the Tuba/Titan forum I'm concerned about losing those lower frequencies as there's a lot of reggae down there :)
You need to look at the SPL chart I posted again. The T39 beats the T30 all the way down to 32Hz. The difference is the T39 gives you the extra SPL where you need it. The extension over SPL argument has been hashed over so much, it's mind numbing. Build T39s.

If you really, really, just gotta have that tiny bit of extension, build T48s, they really beat the T30, at the expense of a slightly larger box (48"x24"x24"). T30 at 30" wide is 15.625 cubic feet, T48 at 24" wide is 16 cubic feet.

I guess this is something that I don't understand. How if you are filtering out the content below 45Hz (on T39) or 35hz (T30) is the response on these curves meaningful?

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#12 Post by Bruce Weldy » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:36 am

tactix wrote: How if you are filtering out the content below 45Hz (on T39) or 35hz (T30) is the response on these curves meaningful?
They are only meaningful down to the lowest crossover point of the cab. If you want content down to 35hz, then T39s are NOT for you. If you are good with 45hz, then the T39 is the better option as they are louder.

The T39 can go below it's suggested crossover point, but you'd have to really limit the power you put to it and totally rob the cab of it's intended use......right tool for the right job.

The real question is always - Do you really need to go below 45hz? I lot of people think so......I'm not so sure as only a small amount of content actually goes down there unless you are only playing specific genres. But, that's a decision you have to make.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#13 Post by dswpro » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:31 pm

If you want to hear some T39's I have 4 in Akron Ohio (and 4 Otops). I may also be interested in selling them. I am not running my PA as much as I used to.

Really the debate on how much low end is enough and how low do they go compared to your music content can be answered easily with a good listen. You will not believe how loud these suckers get with a few watts.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#14 Post by tactix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:08 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
tactix wrote: How if you are filtering out the content below 45Hz (on T39) or 35hz (T30) is the response on these curves meaningful?
They are only meaningful down to the lowest crossover point of the cab. If you want content down to 35hz, then T39s are NOT for you. If you are good with 45hz, then the T39 is the better option as they are louder.
That's what I thought - thank you for the clarification. I decided to build T30s on account of having done test with music sources, filtering below 45hz in Audacity, and being unsatisfied with the results. 35hz was better, 30hz more so on some tracks.

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Re: Champion Sound for Columbus Ohio

#15 Post by tactix » Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:24 pm

Thanks for the offer dswpro. I'm building the T30s but it might be fun to do a comparison sometime. Might be interested in the Otops eventually...
dswpro wrote:If you want to hear some T39's I have 4 in Akron Ohio (and 4 Otops). I may also be interested in selling them. I am not running my PA as much as I used to.

Really the debate on how much low end is enough and how low do they go compared to your music content can be answered easily with a good listen. You will not believe how loud these suckers get with a few watts.

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