Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

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Mishkin
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Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#1 Post by Mishkin »

I am starting out on a little project based on a post from Seth a while back:

viewtopic.php?p=289765#p289765
This was his suggestion to a previous 12volt project.

Im going to a build A T48 primarily to add to a portable small van setup which runs on 12V. when the van is parked at events the sub and speakers will be placed next to it (using van and some ply as a boundary), but they will run off of the leisure batteries in the van. The secondary function for the T48 will to be sometimes separated from the van and mounted on a frame to become the basis for a bike trailer setup like Seth recommended all the way back then.

I imagine i will have some questions along the way, I already have some now ...

I was hoping to use a LAB 15 for this build but It seems Lab15s are just not available in the UK atm. One supplier even told me that they have been discontinued.

Both in the van system and the bike trailer system I will only have a 500watt amp to power the T48 and this will be the only sub. I was hoping for an output that rivals the lab with its very high VD rating in spite of relatively low power situation.
With these criteria in mind what do people think about either of these 2 drivers to stand in for the LAB ?

http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/Ciar ... SW#4%CE%A9

or
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/RCF/LF15G401

Or should i rather just go for the kappalite pro 15LF recommended in Bills plans ? (which would be cheaper)

My other question is a bit of a lazy one, but would any one be able to describe the difference in performance between a 24" wide a 30" wide T48 loaded with the same driver? And be able to estimate the difference in weight ?

Many thanks in advance,

Kairos

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#2 Post by Seth »

Kairos! Welcome back buddy! Good to hear from you again.

Do you have a link to the information on the amplifier you plan to use?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Mishkin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#3 Post by Mishkin »

hey seth :)

nice to hear from you so quick. how've you been ?

The amp is same as the Marseille workshop one, i'm recycling it https://www.pioneer-car.eu/eur/products ... ifications

might upgrade it later if necessary.

Mishkin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#4 Post by Mishkin »

Having read a bit more this evening on the tuba/ titan forum here, i realise my desire to use a LAB15 may have been quite misguided in the first place. the logic was from a quick read of the plans and having seen Bill state that the high Vd means one lab = almost twice as much output as a BP1525. I liked the sound of that, aswell as wanting lots of extension.

The system will be playing electronic music with alot of low frequency content. sometimes lower then 40 hz so Fs and frequency range of the LAB appealed. I jumped into trying to find something similar But i hadnt thought about the weight of the LAB. That RCF driver i suggested as a potential equivalent weighs even more than the LABs do - not great for the poor cyclist pulling the thing :/ .

I could just about afford the 3015LF which is much lighter. How much would that really low content be compromised if i went for one of those ?

any thoughts?

Rich4349
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#5 Post by Rich4349 »

Mishkin wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 pm The system will be playing electronic music with alot of low frequency content. sometimes lower then 40 hz so Fs and frequency range of the LAB appealed.... How much would that really low content be compromised if i went for one of those ?
any thoughts?
As long as the driver you choose comes within 10% of the specs listed in the plans, the performance comes from the cabinet design, not the driver. At least the bottom extension, anyway. A driver with lower efficiency or higher ohms will obviously reduce output, though.
2 DR250s, 2 27" Lab15 T-60s, 2 30" Neo Titan 39s, 1 Autotuba...and looking for more!

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#6 Post by Seth »

I've been well enough. Thanks for asking. :thumbsup:

That amplifier is only going to put out 34-35 volts, about 145 watts nominally into an 8 Ohm driver, 300ish into a 4 Ohm driver. If you're stuck using that amp, I'd shop for a more budget friendly driver than the one's you linked to. With either of the drivers you posted (yes, I noticed Ciare was 4 Ohm), you're going to need considerably more power to get the most out of the driver/cabinet combination.

How would you like to approach the situation? Choose a less expensive driver based on using that amp, or choose a driver with an amp upgrade in mind too?

BTW, the plans mention Kappa Pro 15LF and Kappalite 3015LF, two different drivers. There isn't a Kappalite Pro 15LF. I'd definitely recommend the 3015LF for your situation, it will put a smile on your face. :)

Here's the comparison you asked for...


That 5.5dB difference is considerable, in my opinion. Properly EQ'd the 36" cab on only 127 watts/32 volts will produce the same output as the 24" cab on 450w/60v.

That said, you will definitely want to get the DSP we talked about before. You can play sub 30Hz content, but you must have a high pass filter engaged at 40Hz when using less than 4 cabs. The sub 30Hz content will still be audible, but will be attenuated. When the time comes we'll also need to discuss methods of limiting voltage to the cab if you choose to upgrade to a more powerful amplifier.

You would need an amplifier capable of continuous (not peak) 900-1000watts at 4 Ohms to get the most out of a 3015LF.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#7 Post by Seth »

Do you have Taramps brand amplifiers available to you where you are? The MD3000.1 may be a good possible choice and is reasonably priced here in the states. Should be right around the neighborhood of 60-70 volts with an 8 Ohm load.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Mishkin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#8 Post by Mishkin »

this. is great info to go on, thank you both!

Seth, i will definitely be getting a 12v dsp this time - As was advised in the past.

Will look a bit into amps available here in the UK. Efficiency is a criteria though because we wanna get the most play time possible out of the batteries.
The 18 sound driver we used in the last 12volt project is a bit cheaper than the 3015LF and comes in a 4 Ohm version https://www.eighteensound.it/en/product ... 0/4/15w700
Seth, i remember you saying it meets the TS criteria of the Titan . Would that make more sense in terms of efficiency in this under powered situation?

Rich, out of interest what is the incentive to use a lab15 in a Titan if the bottom extension is all in the cabinet ? just the high driver displacement?
Last edited by Mishkin on Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

Mishkin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#9 Post by Mishkin »

Seth wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:05 pm

Here's the comparison you asked for...


That 5.5dB difference is considerable, in my opinion. Properly EQ'd the 36" cab on only 127 watts/32 volts will produce the same output as the 24" cab on 450w/60v.
Sounds like I should use the cabinet size to make up for Low power context ... but think if i go for more than 24" wide i will probably have to shelve the secondary bicycle pulled setup idea, think it will just be too heavy, Also the price of ply is exxtortionate here atm!

Any idea of weight difference between 24 and 30 inch Titans?

Sadly no Taramps amps here and getting the power to get the most out of the 3015 LF is also gonna cost alot of cash in 12 volt.
lots to weigh up here ( excuse the pun) but i think maybe im trying to hit too many birds with one stone and should rather choose one function and plan for that .

thanks again !

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#10 Post by Seth »

Mishkin wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 5:39 am Sounds like I should use the cabinet size to make up for Low power context ... but think if i go for more than 24" wide i will probably have to shelve the secondary bicycle pulled setup idea, think it will just be too heavy, Also the price of ply is exxtortionate here atm!

Any idea of weight difference between 24 and 30 inch Titans?

Sadly no Taramps amps here and getting the power to get the most out of the 3015 LF is also gonna cost alot of cash in 12 volt.
lots to weigh up here ( excuse the pun) but i think maybe im trying to hit too many birds with one stone and should rather choose one function and plan for that .

thanks again !
You are 100% correct. Hands down, the best and most effective way to increase sensitivity, lower power consumption, and maximize battery life at any given volume with Bill's cab designs is to maximize cab width. If you can't build, transport, or store a full width cab, build it as wide as you possibly can.

There are some ways to get the most out of the amp you have. If you can find 4 Ohm 12" drivers with suitable T/S specs, two of them wired in parallel (instead of a single 15" driver) can be put in a cab 29" to 47" wide (build as wide as you can within your limitations) and the amp would be right at 500 watts continuous with the resultant 2 Ohm load (ignoring the added impedance of the horn for
conversation simplicity sake). As long as the specs check out, even budget drivers may suit you very well.

I guess you'll just have to build it and see if it's too heavy to tow around with a bicycle. My gut says it would be fine if you don't have to pedal up too many hills.

Excluding the weight of the driver, glue, fasteners, paint, and other incidentals, a 36" T48 should weigh between 101 and 129 pounds, depending on the plywood used. A 24" T48 should come in at around 74 to 94 pounds bare cab weight.

36" T48 74.8 square feet of ply based on rough cut panel dimensions
24" t48 54.7 square feet of ply based on rough cut panel dimensions
Baltic Birch, 1.72 lb/ft2
Softwood ply, 1.35lb/ft2
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Mishkin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#11 Post by Mishkin »

Again, Seth, thank you for your informed replies. It's very helpful.

After taking some measurements in the van I've decided to build at 30" width. It would start to get a bit akward any bigger than that. I'm gonna build for the van project and see if the bike pulled transformation is feasible later down the line.

This morning I got a slightly better deal on some birch ply (it's just enough for the 30" cutlist so no mistakes allowed. Hah) . So with your info I guess the bare cab is gonna be about 111 pounds. More orr less 50kilos. Manageable :)

This width also allows for the twin 12" drivers idea, if I go for that.

A few questions :

1. Does what Rich said about the low-end extension coming from the cab not the driver choice (as long as within required ts specs) still apply when comparing two 12s to one 15"? Ie. will 2 12s in parrelel go as low?

2. If I'm looking at budget 15s while thinking about effeciency. What specs should I be looking for ? Is it Sensitivity in Dbs? Or is it Lower aes power handling in watts in relation to higher Vd?- It's at this point I don't have enough knowledge about how these parameters are interrelating to choose well.

I'm kinda tempted to go for the 4 ohm 18sound w700 just because it's available here, not too pricey and it sounded good (to me) powered by that very amp in a much less sophisticated enclosure.( Previous project.)

Or on the other hand still considering going with the highly recommended 3015LF in view of eventually upgrading amp when I have more cash.

Hmmm

All the best and hope it's a good Friday for you all

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#12 Post by Seth »

30" width is a good middle of the road choice :thumbsup:
Mishkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:59 pm 1. Does what Rich said about the low-end extension coming from the cab not the driver choice (as long as within required ts specs) still apply when comparing two 12s to one 15"? Ie. will 2 12s in parrelel go as low?
Yes, it still applies. Two 12's will play just as low as one 15 in the same cab.
Two 4 Ohm 12's wired in parallel will also have roughly 3dB more maximum volume potential with the amp you're using.
2. If I'm looking at budget 15s while thinking about efficiency. What specs should I be looking for ? Is it Sensitivity in Dbs? Or is it Lower aes power handling in watts in relation to higher Vd?- It's at this point I don't have enough knowledge about how these parameters are interrelating to choose well.
All you need to look for are the specs outlined in the plans. Don't get too caught up in the other specs.
I'm kinda tempted to go for the 4 ohm 18sound w700 just because it's available here, not too pricey and it sounded good (to me) powered by that very amp in a much less sophisticated enclosure.( Previous project.)
Two 4 Ohm 12's within spec would give you more useable output than that particular driver.
Or on the other hand still considering going with the highly recommended 3015LF in view of eventually upgrading amp when I have more cash.
The more and more I think about your needs, an 8 Ohm driver only makes sense if you're also going to upgrade your amplifier.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#13 Post by Seth »

I forget where you are now. Is it Berlin?

Two of these would work well for you.
GRS 12SW-4HE
Resonant Frequency (Fs) 22Hz
Total Q (Qts) 0.43
Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 12.5mm

Not sure if it would require the chamber reducers or not, given the panel width is only ½" wider per driver than the minimum width cab.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Strange Kevin
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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#14 Post by Strange Kevin »

Hey,
Good luck on the build, I'll be following along to see how it turns out!

I'm mostly here to agree with Seth that 2x 12" drivers are probably better for your setup.

Also, to confirm my 30" wide T48's weigh about 125ish Pounds.
Thats Baltic birch and a heavy 18Sound driver.
Authorized Builder - Phoenix AZ.
Main Rig - 6 DR200s - 6 T48s (30")
SLA Pros for the smaller stuff.

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Re: Titan 48 for 12v build// No Labs in the UK

#15 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Seth wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:55 pm Two of these would work well for you.
GRS 12SW-4HE
I wouldn't recommend that, it doesn't model well at all. There's no point in very long xmax when you don't have the power to make use of it.

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