Yet another newbie, sorry guys

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LioninSpace
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#31 Post by LioninSpace »

And another thing that I don't quite get. The Ultragraph also has a cross-over frequency dial at the back:
behr backside.jpg
behr backside.jpg (16.98 KiB) Viewed 2868 times
Why building something like that if the EQ faders aren't limited to the main channels? Why even do a sub-out if it isn't separated?

André

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#32 Post by Bruce Weldy »

LioninSpace wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:14 am And another thing that I don't quite get. The Ultragraph also has a cross-over frequency dial at the back:

behr backside.jpg

Why building something like that if the EQ faders aren't limited to the main channels? Why even do a sub-out if it isn't separated?

André

Why indeed.....

That lets you add a sub to full range tops.....which is not a good idea. If your tops only reproduce down to 100hz - then you can set the sub knob a little below that. It's not the proper way to run a system. The unit is really a low level EQ with a sub out added as an afterthought. The only way to emulate a crossover with a graphic EQ is to have two of them - one goes to the tops and one to the subs.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

LioninSpace
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#33 Post by LioninSpace »

I am trying to follow your line of thought but I am not really getting there.

For the double EQ to work, I would need to add the second unit before the ultragraph.... filtering out the LF for the sub and amplify that straight up. The "rest", so the majority of the signal goes into the Ultragraph and gets EQed. No sub out there, no bothering with any of that. Just optimizing the sound of the tops and take away what might interfere with the subs even when that part of the signal already has been taken out.
If that is done right, there won't be too much of a LF signal to work with for the tops, even if they could go down to 100, 80, whatever Hz as the majority of that signal got cut out before and what might be left of it won't be restored well enough to amplify it, if one tries. Correct?

If I am using a cross-over like this one for example: https://www.thomann.de/de/behringer_cx2310_v2.htm

I have a sub-out with a cross-over frequency and take that off to the power-amp. But the two main channels gets split in a high and a low end.... I would have to combine those two outputs together back into the input of my Ultragraph to use the EQ. And the fact that I split it up first and than push it back together only to separte it in further detail.... that ought to add distortions. That can't be clever, can it?

Somehow neither of those two ways seems ideal to me. The ultragraph would be the ideal solution if it would have build right :chainsaw:

Or am I missing something?

Oh well, I guess I do. It might be smarter to take the booth out from the controller, use a small EQ to cut off the HFs and serve that up to the subs while I take to unbothered main signal still to the ultragraph as EQ as planned and make sure the low-end of the tops don't stress the subs. I guess that is the only way that makes sense to me.

André

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#34 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Sounds like you aren't quite understanding signal flow. From what I've read in the earlier posts, your best bet is to get a crossover. Here's how the signal flows. Source - EQ - Crossover - Amps - Speakers

With your current setup, you have no way to properly crossover the subs and mains. And running full range mains along with subs will create a lo-mid mess in your room. So, you either need an additional EQ to create a crossover (which is a band-aid fix that's better than nothing) or get a crossover to separate the subs and mains.

The best solution would be to ditch the EQ you have and replace it with a dbx driverack. It will serve as a crossover and your EQ (a much better EQ than you have). It can also utilize an RTA mic to analyze the room. Used ones are typically not very expensive - and with a two way system like yours, you can use any of the models PA, PA+, PX, or the PA2.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#35 Post by Seth »

Let's see if this works, a direct link to the pdf document titled Product Manual - English
Screenshot_20220902-085839_Drive.jpg
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One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
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Seth
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#36 Post by Seth »

LioninSpace wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:14 am And another thing that I don't quite get. The Ultragraph also has a cross-over frequency dial at the back:

Image

Why building something like that if the EQ faders aren't limited to the main channels? Why even do a sub-out if it isn't separated?

André
André, if that's a picture of your actual unit and that's what you have it set to, that would explain your lack of bass. You're going to want that set somewhere in the neighborhood of 100Hz-125Hz, depending on how low your tops play reliably.

Honestly, the documentation available for your EQ leaves a lot of questions about how it functions unanswered. I'd really have to have the unit in front of me to see the functionality firsthand. Ultimately, Bruce's recommendation of getting a new or secondhand dbx Driverack would be the way to go and get all the functionality you need in one unit.

Also, not a big deal, but the terminology "ringing out" is typically used to describe using the EQ to attenuate troublesome frequencies to eliminate feedback when microphones are used. Usually with stage monitors, but sometimes the main PA too.

Wikipedia - Ringing out
Last edited by Seth on Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Grant Bunter
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#37 Post by Grant Bunter »

I didn't look at Seth's link, so forgive me.

English manual:
https://mediadl.musictribe.com/media/sy ... 262750.pdf

In this, it says something like (because it's a protected PDF it won't let me copy FFS) :
16 Sub Out. This provides balanced XLR output to supply a summed mono signal to an amplifier for subwoofers.
17 Use the X-Over Frequency control to select the desired crossover frequency for the subwoofer.
(I would try 100Hz if your full range speakers can play below 100Hz)
The bandpass limitation enacted through the low cut filter also affects the frequency response of the subwoofer output.

So, if you were to set low cut at 100, and subwoofer crossover frequency was 100, you'd probably have no sub output...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#38 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Grant Bunter wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:43 pm I didn't look at Seth's link, so forgive me.

English manual:
https://mediadl.musictribe.com/media/sy ... 262750.pdf

In this, it says something like (because it's a protected PDF it won't let me copy FFS) :
16 Sub Out. This provides balanced XLR output to supply a summed mono signal to an amplifier for subwoofers.
17 Use the X-Over Frequency control to select the desired crossover frequency for the subwoofer.
(I would try 100Hz if your full range speakers can play below 100Hz)
The bandpass limitation enacted through the low cut filter also affects the frequency response of the subwoofer output.

So, if you were to set low cut at 100, and subwoofer crossover frequency was 100, you'd probably have no sub output...
+1
I feel certain that the sub out is just taking the signal after the EQ then sending it out based on the frequency selection. The mains are still running full range. So, it's pretty worthless....

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#39 Post by Seth »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:53 pm I feel certain that the sub out is just taking the signal after the EQ then sending it out based on the frequency selection. The mains are still running full range. So, it's pretty worthless....
If the sub low pass adjustment on the rear also dictated a high pass for the main out, that would be nice if it functioned that way. But, there's nothing in the manual (that I found) that states whether that's the case, or not. As much as I want to be optimistic, I'm inclined to agree. Without testing and confirmation of how it actually functions, the limited evidence that it may function the way we'd like it to is somewhat discouraging.

André, I apologize if this is all getting a little confusing. I can walk you through how to test what you have and see what tools we're actually working with. I'll PM my telephone number and we can set up a time that works for both of us to chat while the unit is in front of you. Perhaps Whatsapp would be an easy way to do that.

But, I'm not too hopeful the unit you have will do what we need it to do.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#40 Post by Seth »

PM sent
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#41 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Seth wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 7:29 pm
If the sub low pass adjustment on the rear also dictated a high pass for the main out, that would be nice if it functioned that way. But, there's nothing in the manual (that I found) that states whether that's the case, or not. As much as I want to be optimistic, I'm inclined to agree.

I bet big money on it. There used to be some mixers that had a sub out with a variable low pass. It was just a cheap add-on. And those old Berry EQs aren't going to have anything sophisticated on them - especially since there isn't a switch that would tell it to high pass the mains...it's just a summed output with a variable frequency knob. And I'd bet it's probably only 12db of slope.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#42 Post by Seth »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:38 pm I bet big money on it.
Yeah, I'm not gonna take that bet. LOL There's nothing in the literature to suggest you're not absolutely right. And what you say makes complete sense.

Although, it seems we're left with either helping make it the best it can be with what he's got, and/or coaching him in the right direction with the purchase of a dbx Driverack (preferred).
Thomann.de - dbx Driverack PA2
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#43 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Seth wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:46 pm

Although, it seems we're left with either helping make it the best it can be with what he's got, and/or coaching him in the right direction with the purchase of a dbx Driverack (preferred).
Thomann.de - dbx Driverack PA2
If he stays with the gear he's got, I'd say to use the sub out on the EQ and set the low pass around 80 or so....maybe even lower to get as far away from having the subs and the mains producing the same frequencies....and then really having to use placement and EQ to try and tame all the problems.

I'd hook it all up and start sweeping that variable sub output knob to see at what spot it cleans up the low-mid build up that's most likely to happen, then start working the EQ.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

LioninSpace
Posts: 27
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:44 am

Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#44 Post by LioninSpace »

Uff :shock:

OK, that is a lot of information for me to digest.

First of all, thanks for the input guys. There seems to be a lot info there that I can play around with to see if I can improve on the current output.
And thanks a lot for the full manual. I only had a chance to give it a quick glance. Didn't notice that it did claim the 31 faders do effect the sub-out directly, but trust that you guys know what you are talking about.
Its a bit frustrating to have bought that peace of kid (Ultragraph) late last year thinking it would give me all I need regarding cross-over use plus optimizing the output for the room as well to only hear, that I need a much more expensive peace to archive this. :(

I can't affort the dbx. At least not new and certainly not now. If you adjust your link to German it changes the currency as well. This would cost me 475€. Have to brace for doubling or trippling of my heating bill for this winter, there is just no way that I can spend that sort of money on my hobby right now. I don't earn any money using this kid. Its just for my own pleasure. :broke:

Sure, once it is bit further down the line, I might want to open it up and do a few parties a year with a semi-commercial interest, but that is down the road. I need a lot of investment into light before that really becomes a possibility. At the moment, I run 4 MHs (sound driven), 8 PARs (physical dmx controller) and a mirror ball with three spots (also controlled by the dmx controller). Another 8 PARs exist but they are not hooked up to the system yet as I can only control 12 fixtures with the physical DMX device. I need to change over to computer controlled DMX.

I do have the electric parts of a USB to DMX interface, but need to get started soldering to get this up and running. :roll: This would hand over the light control to the computer and open up a lot more possibilities. My light system Is also still missing a hazer and at least a center effect to be ready for show. At least I do have a decent desktop running two monitors to be able to control music on one and light on the other. Well, that is at least the plan, but a lot for me to learn on that front as well. DMX has some great possibilites, but it isn't all that simple to control. At least not if you want a light show that matches the music.

This is a long term project and it has taken me three years to come as far as I am now. All I had at the start were the tops and the dance hall that got me dreaming. Spending money is not much of an option at the moment. I will start to look out for a used alternative, so happy to hear what other peaces can do the job as limiting the used search for just the driverrack might take a while to return any results.

Hope to soon find some time (and friends to help) to go through some of the earlier suggestions.

André

Grant Bunter
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Re: Yet another newbie, sorry guys

#45 Post by Grant Bunter »

It's taken me a long long time to get to where I am now in terms of PA and lighting, because I only ever buy new (or new to me) stuff when I can afford to.
Part of the solution was to build PA myself.
You will get there.
As far as buying something that doesn't do quite what you thought it did, well, that's just part of the learning curve right?
It's still a necessary piece of equipment in your rig.

Lighting: I grew up with PAR 56's and 64's, and I've had 12 x 56's, and cycs for err 20 years, and added profiles.
Over the last 5 years in particular, I've moved much more towards LEDs, so much so, I've finally found some high enough powered but small LED fittings that mean I can retrofit my 56's with them.
I'm refurbing 6 MH's now.
I have lots of LED pars on lighting T bars and floor stands, and bar lights for wall washers.

I use Freestyler DMX on a dedicated to lighting laptop with a Entec DMX Pro Mk II controller and that works pretty good.

Until you can upgrade, can you get some more fixtures working by bunching lights into groups and using 1 address for that group? That would free up some channels on your controller...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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