Hello!

Message
Author
jmutts
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:49 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Hello!

#1 Post by jmutts »

Hi all,
New guy checking in from Ontario, Canada. I stumbled onto this lovely corner of the internet while looking into DIY subwoofer designs and am certainly glad I did.

Some background on me, I'm a software engineer, woodworker, and music lover. I've designed and built a wide variety of furniture, electronics, and random knick·knacks over the years, but have never built any speakers, though I've always toyed with the idea.

My current use case is to build some subs to add to a semi-mobile DJ setup that I use with friends for house parties and mini club nights/festivals throughout the year. We're *usually* indoors, but do go outdoors on occasion. Probably about an 85/15% split over the course of the year.

We play almost exclusively electronic music, typically techno/house/trance and their various subgenres. I've already scoped out a sample of my library and a fair number of my tracks have content down to the 20Hz range.

Our current setup consists of a few pairs of EV ETX 12Ps for tops, owned by a few different folks, paired with EV ETX15SP subs and an equalizer that we rent as needed.

This journey started as a way to eliminate the need to rent subs, and at the same time build an amp rack with a DriveRack for the extra features over the basic EQ, which landed me here. I haven't bought any plans or drivers yet, though I'll likely just buy the whole bundle so I'll be ready when I cave and decide to build some new tops and sell the EVs, haha.

I'm currently bouncing between building a pair of Tuba 30s or Titan 39s (possibly quickly followed by another pair, especially for outdoor shows) and am hoping to get some opinions, though it seems like I can't really go wrong with either.

The goal, first and foremost, is the listening experience. I want to (eventually) build a system that would put most nightclubs to shame. Bass you can feel in your bones, but without sacrificing clarity for loudness.

Size/mobility is not the deciding factor, they don't get hauled around every week or anything, and I have a truck/trailer/etc, but I am a fan of optimizing setup/teardown time. I also like the idea of being able to V-plate them if needed.

Looking forward to getting some input from you fine folks.

Cheers,
J

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello!

#2 Post by Grant Bunter »

Hi, and welcome :)

If you're prepared to go there in your intro thread, let's get to some straight up must know things.

Horn subs don't complain if you push them to hard. They simply stop working because they blow.
To that end, factor in something with a brick wall limiter. Since it also has EQ, RTA, and crossover capability in one lil RU box, the Driverack series from DBX are the best value IMHO. Doesn't have to be new, they can be got reasonably second hand compared to new via local auction sites. Factor that in. You mentioned it, but it's mandatory.
We play almost exclusively electronic music, typically techno/house/trance and their various subgenres. I've already scoped out a sample of my library and a fair number of my tracks have content down to the 20Hz range.
Only one sub in Bill's designs will get near 20Hz. The T60. Notice I didn't say to, but near.
Our current setup consists of a few pairs of EV ETX 12Ps for tops, owned by a few different folks, paired with EV ETX15SP subs and an equalizer that we rent as needed.
Again, you've mentioned it, but whatever you build will probably outrun your EV tops. Look at Otops for simpler builds. If you're up for a challenge, DR's are the go, probably the DR250 for your needs, though these may be overkill indoors, but you have to cover outdoors as well.
I'm currently bouncing between building a pair of Tuba 30s or Titan 39s (possibly quickly followed by another pair, especially for outdoor shows) and am hoping to get some opinions, though it seems like I can't really go wrong with either.
As I mentioned before, if you want to head towards 20Hz, then the T60 is the go. Since a T60 is about the same size as a large fridge and as heavy though, that tends to put people off.

2 x T39's can be used to 45Hz, 4 or more 40Hz. 2 x T30 can be used to 35Hz, 4 or more 30Hz (you'll learn all about why as you go along)
Titans are louder than Tuba's.
Another option would be the T48, 4 or more can be used to 35Hz and will be louder than the T30's.

As you can see, there's choices and compromises to be made because all three cabs are a stretch from 20Hz.

Because you have little ability to load outdoors, the usual way to counteract that is to double cab count outdoors.

Enjoy your time in the forum, and let us know how we can help...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jmutts
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:49 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Hello!

#3 Post by jmutts »

Hey Grant!

Thanks for the info

I figured 20Hz was ambitious, and the T60 is definitely too big. I can live without getting quite that low. The EV subs we rent go down to about the 35ish range, so I want to make sure we can at least match that. 30 would be great.

DR250s were what I figured I would end up with.

Definitely getting a DriveRack, no worries there.

4 T30s might be the way to go. I assume they're plenty loud for ~200 person venues, so the extra volume from the Titans is probably not needed?

Cheers,
J

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello!

#4 Post by Grant Bunter »

I figured 20Hz was ambitious, and the T60 is definitely too big. I can live without getting quite that low. The EV subs we rent go down to about the 35ish range, so I want to make sure we can at least match that. 30 would be great.
Great, compromise on the T60 is good.
Yes, the EV's you get are -3dB at 37Hz, and -10dB (half as loud) at 32Hz. You could probably safely say they are 40-110Hz cabs.
However, with the T30, the catch is, to run down to 30Hz, you always have to use all 4, you can run 2 down to 35Hz.
BTW, read and learn the sub placement sticky here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398
DR250s were what I figured I would end up with.
Nice choice. Not impossible to do, just take a long time. I know!
4 T30s might be the way to go. I assume they're plenty loud for ~200 person venues, so the extra volume from the Titans is probably not needed?
You will to and fro about this. Making a decision is the hardest part in a way. If you have ample volume, you can always turn down. If you don't, there's only so far you can turn up. The majority of kick drum is in the 50-70Hz region, and the titans do that better. But to get the content required from a titan means you need the T48.
If you can, see if you can determine what is producing that low content in your tracks to aid in a decision.

One thing for sure, and I'll get in first lol. Build as wide as you can from the outset. So wide that the cabs will go through doors, just, if you have the pack space if they need to go somewhere else. Don't do "slims". I reckon T30's at say 2" less wide than the doorways in your house for a little wiggle factor. And use the premium driver, which would be the 3012LF. Buy once, cry once. Don't ask me how I know...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

User avatar
Tom Smit
Posts: 7457
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: Hello!

#5 Post by Tom Smit »

Welcome to the forum!

My first thought was the T30, but then Grant mentioned the T48. Here is a graph comparing the two. They are roughly the same width (T30 is 3" wider). They have the same driver in the fraph to keep the comparisons close.
I suggest building a minimum width of 24", but 27" will fit the door ways with wiggle room (my back door is 29" wide, for reference). Here is some more to and fro....3" difference more or less results in 1 or 2db difference (inside a model line).
TomS

howiez
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:23 pm
Location: Fox Valley, Wisconsin

Re: Hello!

#6 Post by howiez »

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I'm a noob around here, but I've learned tons from the great people here. For sure you want to bite the bullet and buy all the plans, I'm speaking from experience. I initially bought the THT plans, a sub for my home theater is what brought me here. Then i was so blown away, I had to buy all the plans. I've built a THT, two Truck Tubas, a pair of TItan48's and a pair of DR200's. As I mentioned, the THT was on purpose, but a gateway drug. The first TruckTuba was for my son's college dorm, made a 'party box' of sorts with a built in 2.1 amp and some L/R speakers built into another box grafted on the side. Made a nice TV stand for his dorm room. The second Truck Tuba is in process right now for my other sons SUV. Then I built a T48 just for the heck of it, with leftover wood and driver, for a garage subwoofer. It was amazing, so I built a second last year. Then I decided to build a pair of DR200's to go with them to use at my sons wedding and a friends informal wedding. Now I have gear for parties similar to what you are doing. I wanted DR250 or Dr280's but decided on small/cheaper builds for my first foray into tops. They will spend most of their life in my workshop, but we were not disappointed at any venue we've tried them at. The DRs are awesome, and I hope to build bigger ones someday.

As for your project, subs, I'd recommend Tubas for pack space. like they say here, the Titans are louder, but oh boy are they big. Mine are 24" wide, and while they fit through doors, they don't fit in the back of my truck (under the toneau cover). I'm contemplating building some T30's for that reason alone. You won't likely miss the 20-30Hz content. I'm not an EDM fan (classic/80's rock) but my Titans really shine with any type of dance/EDM. They have not failed to put smiles on peoples faces. At my sons wedding, we had 4 noise complaints from neighbors (we are indoors, at a dedicated outdoor/indoor venue) that were nowhere close/visible except one house probably 200 feet away across the parking lot and highway through trees.

Ask lots of questions and dig around the forum, lots to be learned in old threads on here.

jmutts
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:49 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Hello!

#7 Post by jmutts »

Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:10 am BTW, read and learn the sub placement sticky here:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=398
Yeah I gave that a read a few days ago and am already vaguely familiar with the concepts. The diagrams and renders are awesome, and I will definitely be paying more attention at future events.
Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:10 am You will to and fro about this. Making a decision is the hardest part in a way. If you have ample volume, you can always turn down. If you don't, there's only so far you can turn up.
Yeah, I'll probably just toss a coin to decide between the T48 and the T30, and then just go full send and build 4 of them. I'm a big fan of over-engineering, so will definitely default to having more gear than required and then dialling things back as needed.
Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:10 am And use the premium driver, which would be the 3012LF. Buy once, cry once.
This is the way. Though if I go with the Titan I think I'd want the 3015LF, no? Either way, the point stands.
Tom Smit wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:19 am Welcome to the forum!

My first thought was the T30, but then Grant mentioned the T48. Here is a graph comparing the two. They are roughly the same width (T30 is 3" wider). They have the same driver in the fraph to keep the comparisons close.
I suggest building a minimum width of 24", but 27" will fit the door ways with wiggle room (my back door is 29" wide, for reference). Here is some more to and fro....3" difference more or less results in 1 or 2db difference (inside a model line).
Thanks Tom, yeah that graph lines up with what I had pieced together. Really seems like both the Tuba 30 and the Titan 48 are fairly similar in performance, so it maybe just comes down to form factor. I do like the idea of being able to wheel around the Titans without bending at 90 degrees, haha.
howiez wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:17 am they don't fit in the back of my truck (under the toneau cover). I'm contemplating building some T30's for that reason alone.
Nice callout howiez, I didn't even think about the toneau cover. Thankfully, I also have a trailer, and access to a panel van for most events, so I'm not *too* concerned about that, though now that I'm aware of it, it's going to haunt me, haha.


Thanks for all the info, gents, though it has all just confirmed my fears that both options are great, so I'm no closer to making an actual decision, haha. My coin toss idea might win out after all

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello!

#8 Post by Grant Bunter »

jmutts wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:53 pm Thanks for all the info, gents, though it has all just confirmed my fears that both options are great, so I'm no closer to making an actual decision, haha. My coin toss idea might win out after all
Form factor may help with deciding then. Since you have a trailer and/or a van if needs be.

A T48 is only 24" deep, so turned sideways will fit through nearly every door, regardless of width.
You could only say the same for the T30 based on width, which would have to be less than average door width.

Width gives "free" bang for buck (other than more ply and a bit more cursing warped panels if you choose not to use BB), greater output for free. It's worth pursuing if you have help.

A few dB extra output because you built wider is roughly the same as adding another cab without actually doing that...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jmutts
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:49 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Hello!

#9 Post by jmutts »

Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:14 pm Form factor may help with deciding then. Since you have a trailer and/or a van if needs be.

A T48 is only 24" deep, so turned sideways will fit through nearly every door, regardless of width.
You could only say the same for the T30 based on width, which would have to be less than average door width.

Width gives "free" bang for buck (other than more ply and a bit more cursing warped panels if you choose not to use BB), greater output for free. It's worth pursuing if you have help.

A few dB extra output because you built wider is roughly the same as adding another cab without actually doing that...
Good point. Sounds like the Titan might win out, then. The 24x24x48 size plays so nicely with sheets of ply, though, haha.

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Hello!

#10 Post by Grant Bunter »

jmutts wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:07 pm The 24x24x48 size plays so nicely with sheets of ply, though, haha.
Doing 28 instead of 24 (or 23 15/16" allowing for kerf) in a pair of T39's added one sheet of 8 x 4 ply.
There's not many things in the audio world where spending $50-100 would net you a few dB, so it's peanuts really...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28619
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Hello!

#11 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

jmutts wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:07 pm The 24x24x48 size plays so nicely with sheets of ply, though, haha.
Not when you use 60x60 BB.

User avatar
Chris_Allen
Posts: 3355
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:43 pm
Location: Huddersfield, UK

Re: Hello!

#12 Post by Chris_Allen »

If the T30 was in consideration, is also take a look at the T45, an often overlooked cab Much more door friendly than a T30 and easier to manage on your own without a cart.

I loved my 30" T48 3015LFs, they were amazing - just too big for me. As mentioned, the T48 sideways will go through any opening irrespective of width but if pack space allows, go as wide as you can. Even an extra 3" guess a long way.
Built:
6xDR200, 2xT39, 2xT48, 2xJack110, 1xOmni10.5, 1xAutotuba, 1xT18, 1xSLA Pro, 1xW8, 1xW10

jmutts
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2022 4:49 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Hello!

#13 Post by jmutts »

Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:30 pm Doing 28 instead of 24 (or 23 15/16" allowing for kerf) in a pair of T39's added one sheet of 8 x 4 ply.
There's not many things in the audio world where spending $50-100 would net you a few dB, so it's peanuts really...
Yeah the money isn't the issue, I'm just an efficiency nerd, and 24/48 goes into a 4x8 sheet nicely, haha
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:39 am Not when you use 60x60 BB.
True enough, if I can find some near me. They were hard to come by last I looked.
Chris_Allen wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:31 pm If the T30 was in consideration, is also take a look at the T45, an often overlooked cab Much more door friendly than a T30 and easier to manage on your own without a cart.

I loved my 30" T48 3015LFs, they were amazing - just too big for me. As mentioned, the T48 sideways will go through any opening irrespective of width but if pack space allows, go as wide as you can. Even an extra 3" guess a long way.
I looked at the T45, but my understanding is that I can't benefit from V-plating those because they're end firing, right? Maybe I misunderstood.


In terms of drivers, is there a point where these cab designs start to plateau in terms of performance/efficiency? Wondering if I can get more oomph out of less cabs, thinking of maybe just starting with 2, if I step up to something like a 1000W 15" B&C driver or something, or if there's a limit before the quality/efficiency falls off.

User avatar
J_Dunavin
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:13 pm
Location: Appleton WI
Contact:

Re: Hello!

#14 Post by J_Dunavin »

I can speak to the 45, as I had 6 of them.
No they can’t be V plated, but I never really missed that (I jumped from four T24s to six T45s)
I have downsized considerably to two OT8s and two T39s and the titans are much more efficient, to answer your question on which cab/ driver combo is the most efficient.
Also keep in mind that these work best in multiples. Four T39s would win over one or two T48s for example.

If your looking for the best all around, I’ve got to vote for either the T48 or 39.

Ultimately you need to measure your pack space and figure what you can comfortably fit with all the other gear too.
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

himhimself
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:34 pm
Location: Vancouver BC & Bloomington IN

Re: Hello!

#15 Post by himhimself »

jmutts wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:36 pm
I looked at the T45, but my understanding is that I can't benefit from V-plating those because they're end firing, right? Maybe I misunderstood.
That is correct and played into my decision to build T30s instead. The V-plate bonus dB was too hard to resist. I've gotten better at moving the T30s around with experience but they are awkward, no doubt. I currently stack two on their sides on a square moving dolly. Easy to push around and will go through most doors (just not interior residential), as well as quick trailer unload/load with a ramp. With this set-up, I can just wheel the two stacks up corner to corner and attach the v-plate, never even taking them off the dollies. I probably lose a little not being coupled tight to the floor, but it sure is easy :-)
2xT30 (20", 3012LF)
2xT30 (21", 3012LF)
4xOtop J-array (Beta12, melded/straight piezos)
Truck Tuba (MCM)
Next up: 2xJack12 or family of table tubas

Post Reply