Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

Combining subs, tops and all the rest of your kit.
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#61 Post by Bruce Weldy »

SethRocksYou wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:24 pm
I recall reading that you never really got around to dialing those in. That you pulled them from service before the band got a sour taste in their mouth for DIY gear... or something to that effect. Is it at all possible that you just fed them too much bottom end, or more than would be in typical recorded content that the OP is interested in reproducing? Do you feel a Jack 110 would perform better in bass and kick monitor duty?
With apologies to the OP, I'll go a little further down this road for a little more clarification.

What I never got dialed in was the honky-ness of the mids in the vocal range. It's important to define the job of monitors in the particular situation. A typical stage will have a live drum kit and amplified instruments - so the monitors have to be able to cut through to be heard. The WH10 can certainly do that as that's what it's designed to do.

However, on a stage that is quiet - which was the case in my band at that time (Edrums and guitar and bass running direct), the attributes that allowed the vocals to cut through on a regular stage were not pleasing when trying to achieve a more balanced sound out of the monitors. The farting out of the bass and kick would certainly be more prevalent with live music transients than recorded music, but that wasn't the area that needed more dialing in. So, there were two different issues in what I was using it for.

As far as feeding them too much bottom end, no that wasn't the problem. i was giving them what they needed to sound balanced, but yes we wanted to get some decent response below 100hz.

Would a Jack 10 fare better than a WH10 on drum monitor duty? That goes back to the question of what you are putting in it. I do believe it would fare better with full range content and the whole band mix than the WH10, but I wouldn't ever ask it to pull that duty. If it's just vocal content - then the WH10 would be fine. Neither of those are suited to a full band, full range mix of a band at a live gig volume. To get enough bottom end to please the drummer and the bass player - and me as well, we went back to the direct radiating Yamahas with a 15 and a horn. That's a place where those harmonics probably really helped with the perception of power on the low end.....especially being only a few feet in front of them.

All of that is why I eventually built this as a drum monitor.
T24 2015 12 small.jpg
I no longer use it at shows as most drummers are happy with the Yamahas - which are much better than they are used to getting and I don't have to haul the T24. Plus, I don't want to give it up as my garage monitor.

There's always more to picking the right tool than just SPL charts.


Bottom line is that this project is so ham-strung with the size/weight/low power parameters that it's like taking a knife to a gun fight. You just do the best you can. If there is a cart involved with hauling it all around - then build a Jack 15 - it's bigger and heavier than the Jack 10 or 12, but lighter than the Omni 12 or 15. I have built one of those for bass duty and it booms pretty danged good with a 2515 and 75 watts of power.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CarterKraft
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Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:46 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#62 Post by CarterKraft »

Don't let me ruin your guys relationship for this trivial quest.

I appreciate everyone's input and I was hesitant to even ask you guys to suggest a design for me because I know that is like asking car brands, oil brands etc.

Goal creep is a big issue on this build, I am trying to compete with a $100 Ion TailGater, not sure if you have ever heard one but they are not miracles of sound engineering. It uses a Alesis 3/4" Dome tweeter and 6.5-8" ported woofer https://youtu.be/6VyRE6KGvJw

I figured I can easily beat that system using some better components If I just copied the design and I knew BFM had designs that would for sure have more output, clarity etc. with Pro Sound gear.

The balance will be building something that can be easily operated by my daughter (she's smart but not a engineer) and loaded/unloaded by a group of girls, my wife or just daughter.

The battery issue is not as serious as it used to be, with 3000mah lipo cells commonplace it is pretty easy to get a serious battery built fairly cheaply and lite weight.

Finding a power sipping amp has been tough as Seth as pointed out but if all else fails I can use a car audio class D amp (Taramps or similar) and Li-po batteries.

I for sure plan to use DSP, the knobs on the blast box have already been problematic on the bus because the other girls try to "turn it up". It will be all EQ'd on a board and only a bluetooth reciever/aux jack for volume/tone control.

I listened to a video of a jack the other night on Youtube in a Home studio and it sounds awesome, I can't tell if the sub is active in the video or not.
https://youtu.be/cUZ4cUitA1Y
Weldon Carter

CarterKraft
Posts: 203
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Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#63 Post by CarterKraft »

I really like the O15 Tallboy but it appears to be far too big for practical as a portable.

The Jack 112 Lite though seems perfect. I am worried about the low end but it can't be any worse than the TailGater above or regular 12" direct radiating PA speaker right?

Edit: I am pretty sure the next set of BFM plans I buy will be the entire set haha.
Weldon Carter

CarterKraft
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#64 Post by CarterKraft »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:32 am
SethRocksYou wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:24 pm
I recall reading that you never really got around to dialing those in. That you pulled them from service before the band got a sour taste in their mouth for DIY gear... or something to that effect. Is it at all possible that you just fed them too much bottom end, or more than would be in typical recorded content that the OP is interested in reproducing? Do you feel a Jack 110 would perform better in bass and kick monitor duty?
With apologies to the OP, I'll go a little further down this road for a little more clarification.

What I never got dialed in was the honky-ness of the mids in the vocal range. It's important to define the job of monitors in the particular situation. A typical stage will have a live drum kit and amplified instruments - so the monitors have to be able to cut through to be heard. The WH10 can certainly do that as that's what it's designed to do.

However, on a stage that is quiet - which was the case in my band at that time (Edrums and guitar and bass running direct), the attributes that allowed the vocals to cut through on a regular stage were not pleasing when trying to achieve a more balanced sound out of the monitors. The farting out of the bass and kick would certainly be more prevalent with live music transients than recorded music, but that wasn't the area that needed more dialing in. So, there were two different issues in what I was using it for.

As far as feeding them too much bottom end, no that wasn't the problem. i was giving them what they needed to sound balanced, but yes we wanted to get some decent response below 100hz.

Would a Jack 10 fare better than a WH10 on drum monitor duty? That goes back to the question of what you are putting in it. I do believe it would fare better with full range content and the whole band mix than the WH10, but I wouldn't ever ask it to pull that duty. If it's just vocal content - then the WH10 would be fine. Neither of those are suited to a full band, full range mix of a band at a live gig volume. To get enough bottom end to please the drummer and the bass player - and me as well, we went back to the direct radiating Yamahas with a 15 and a horn. That's a place where those harmonics probably really helped with the perception of power on the low end.....especially being only a few feet in front of them.

All of that is why I eventually built this as a drum monitor.

T24 2015 12 small.jpg

I no longer use it at shows as most drummers are happy with the Yamahas - which are much better than they are used to getting and I don't have to haul the T24. Plus, I don't want to give it up as my garage monitor.

There's always more to picking the right tool than just SPL charts.


Bottom line is that this project is so ham-strung with the size/weight/low power parameters that it's like taking a knife to a gun fight. You just do the best you can. If there is a cart involved with hauling it all around - then build a Jack 15 - it's bigger and heavier than the Jack 10 or 12, but lighter than the Omni 12 or 15. I have built one of those for bass duty and it booms pretty danged good with a 2515 and 75 watts of power.
Thanks for clarifying your take on the WH10 Bruce.
I know I am asking for trouble but this is what I do, I am DIY LOL.

I could always just build a Simplex variant or get on Amazon and buy a rechargeable Rockville 12" PA for $180...
https://www.amazon.com/Rockville-RAM12B ... 601&sr=8-2

That's not my style though.
I would love to be able to compete with the Diamond Box XL2 I linked earlier in the thread but I don't think this project requires that size of cab or $$ investment for nut swinging rights against my friend. If the Jack 112 can drown him out though I will be over the moon.
Weldon Carter

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#65 Post by Bruce Weldy »

CarterKraft wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:40 am Don't let me ruin your guys relationship for this trivial quest.

Not at all. This is a very good forum. Sometimes we may banter back and forth and occasionally disagree, but there is rarely ever anything more than that. We all try to chase the truth based on our own experiences and yeah, sometimes we caught out in the weeds doing a bunch of math that ultimately doesn't mean a hill of beans when it comes down to 2-3 db.

Personally, I use the data to help me make decisions, but the bottom line is getting the right tool for the job. Sometimes there are more than one possibility based on what you want.

Hell, the box I'm building right now only got chosen because I thought it would look good. I could have chosen others that would work.

So, take all the info - sift it around - then go make some sawdust!

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CarterKraft
Posts: 203
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:46 pm
Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#66 Post by CarterKraft »

My son is getting this amp for his front stage in his truck for xmas.
https://www.taramps.com.br/en/produto/ds-250x2/

It is 250w @ 4 ohms so maybe it will do honest 100w at 8 ohms.
If I went with CD horns instead of piezos could I build the crossover so the ohm load was lower than 8?
Weldon Carter

Grant Bunter
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#67 Post by Grant Bunter »

Deleted
Last edited by Grant Bunter on Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#68 Post by Bruce Weldy »

CarterKraft wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:47 am My son is getting this amp for his front stage in his truck for xmas.
https://www.taramps.com.br/en/produto/ds-250x2/

It is 250w @ 4 ohms so maybe it will do honest 100w at 8 ohms.
If I went with CD horns instead of piezos could I build the crossover so the ohm load was lower than 8?
No, just stick with the 8 ohm load as per the plans. You'd have to redesign the crossover along with changing to a 4 ohm driver....

The voltage coming from the amp is the same regardless of the impedance of the drivers.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#69 Post by Seth »

CarterKraft wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:49 am I really like the O15 Tallboy but it appears to be far too big for practical as a portable.

The Jack 112 Lite though seems perfect. I am worried about the low end but it can't be any worse than the TailGater above or regular 12" direct radiating PA speaker right?

Edit: I am pretty sure the next set of BFM plans I buy will be the entire set haha.
Two really good choices there. Definitely buy the CD. And the Jack Lite 112 is a fantastic choice. Fits well within your limitations. It should walk all over that TailGater, and will likely give your buddy with the Diamond Box a little envy too. 50-100 watts into a Jack Lite 112 will be very loud at anything closer that 10-15 feet

The more I thought about it today, the "Super Bass" feature in the PE DSP board would be a fantastic way to maximize the sound quality, the overall output capability, and extend battery life for this project. Without it, you'd need to either boost the frequencies below 150ish, or attenuate the mids and highs above the roughly the same point. Either avenue will limit the power available to the mid and high frequencies. Where, with the super bass plugin could be used to essentially move the bass to an area that the speaker is more sensitive in. May even be able to high pass the lower frequencies out altogether after the plug-in in the DSP and still "hear" them as though they were there. It should allow a lot more overall volume from the cab.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#70 Post by Seth »

CarterKraft wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:47 am My son is getting this amp for his front stage in his truck for xmas.
https://www.taramps.com.br/en/produto/ds-250x2/

It is 250w @ 4 ohms so maybe it will do honest 100w at 8 ohms.
If I went with CD horns instead of piezos could I build the crossover so the ohm load was lower than 8?
The Tech Specs for that amp state it as 250 bridged into 2 Ohms, 158w bridged into 4 ohms. Would likely be around 75 into 8 ohms. From the reviews and videos, Taramps makes a good product and is honest in their advertised ratings.

Part of me likes the idea of using a 12 volt amplifier. Mainly that it would be easy to run and charge with a cigarette lighter adapter.

I also like the idea of the PC Board amps too.

As far as trying to find something with more than 100w, I personally wouldn't. Or, wouldn't unless for some reason 100w wasn't enough. But, to make another 3dB you'll need to double that, and double that again for another 3dB. That put's you at 400w for a 6dB increase over 100w.

If you're curious what a 3dB or 6dB difference sounds like, check out this link Blind Hearing Tests
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

CarterKraft
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Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#71 Post by CarterKraft »

I looked and looked for some more PC board amps that are above the 100w threshold and there aren't many to find, and those are all rated at really low ohm loads.

The Icepower line seems like it will work just find and PE has several to choose from. I will test with the 100w T-amp from the blast box and a few PA amps I have that 100w and 30w to see exactly what is needed to accomplish then go from there.
Using the lipo boards from PE is super easy as well, power in/out and done. Can charge from 14-30v, battery management is all built in. Pretty slick setups.

I am tempted to build the CD horns as me and my son really admire their output on the water from the wakeboard boats however they seem to be pretty focused in their dispersion and the melded piezo array might be the better choice. I think the CD would be tough to beat up against the Diamond Boxx though in head to head testing. Might need to make both...

Those hearing tests are pretty awesome, I was 100% up to 1db using my laptop speakers haha.
Weldon Carter

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#72 Post by Seth »

CarterKraft wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 2:20 pm I looked and looked for some more PC board amps that are above the 100w threshold and there aren't many to find, and those are all rated at really low ohm loads.

The Icepower line seems like it will work just find and PE has several to choose from. I will test with the 100w T-amp from the blast box and a few PA amps I have that 100w and 30w to see exactly what is needed to accomplish then go from there.
Using the lipo boards from PE is super easy as well, power in/out and done. Can charge from 14-30v, battery management is all built in. Pretty slick setups.

I am tempted to build the CD horns as me and my son really admire their output on the water from the wakeboard boats however they seem to be pretty focused in their dispersion and the melded piezo array might be the better choice. I think the CD would be tough to beat up against the Diamond Boxx though in head to head testing. Might need to make both...

Those hearing tests are pretty awesome, I was 100% up to 1db using my laptop speakers haha.
For this particular case I think the wider dispersion of the melded array would serve you well and also put the smack down on the Diamond Box too. But, I get that sometimes a guy just wants what he wants. I look forward to your impression no matter what direction you choose. And would love to hear all about it if you build both options.

If you go back to that hearing test page and hit the sample for "3dB up" (I'd recommend using headphones), that's essentially the difference you'd get in volume between 100 and 200 watts. Or, stated in terms relative to this project, you'd get half the battery life to achieve that increase in output. Not worth it IMO. But, you may think it is. Certainly a valid opinion and choice too.

In any case, testing it out with amplifiers you already have is a smart plan :thumbsup:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

CarterKraft
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Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#73 Post by CarterKraft »

The back story of this build will be my 16 year old son will be largely involved in building it. I bought a sheet of 1/2" BB to build one of the Auto Tuba variants for his room or the wife/moms Kia Sorrento. We like the latter because it has the factory subwoofer/amp and with a simple plug/play wiring we could have some more boom in the mom-mobile.

I will revisit the hearing test site with the headphones so he can see the differences too.

I scanned the 12" drivers again and it looks like if the that S2012 basslite is a well suited driver for the J112 then I should probably go that way to keep the price down (half price).
Weldon Carter

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#74 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

My Jack 12 Lite is loaded with an S2012.

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#75 Post by Seth »

S2012 is what I'd choose too, given the intended use.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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