Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

Combining subs, tops and all the rest of your kit.
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#46 Post by Bruce Weldy »

SethRocksYou wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:46 am
Bruce Weldy wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:46 pm
CarterKraft wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:21 pm I am probably going to use this amp for the blast box as the little amp included is not near as clean as I would like and this amp has built in has DSP.
My brother used it in a portable speaker and raves about it.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-au ... p--325-135
You have to look past the sales info.....that amp is 100 watts into 2 ohms.....at 8 ohms, it's not nearly enough juice to get the job done.
I think he's talking about replacing the amp that his PE Blast Box came with, with that amp.
I wasn't sure exactly which box he has referencing.....but still not much juice even for a boom box if you want it to fill a big room, much less outside. And we all know how power ratings are always overstated.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CarterKraft
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Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#47 Post by CarterKraft »

I am sorry for all the confusion, I am all over the place I know.

After the disappointment at the b ball game I have a little more ammo to build a GYM box.

If you guys have to build ONE cab alone what's your best opinion regardless of size/power/etc?

The Omni Tall seems more well rounded, is that correct?
Weldon Carter

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#48 Post by Bruce Weldy »

CarterKraft wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:11 pm I am sorry for all the confusion, I am all over the place I know.

After the disappointment at the b ball game I have a little more ammo to build a GYM box.

If you guys have to build ONE cab alone what's your best opinion regardless of size/power/etc?

The Omni Tall seems more well rounded, is that correct?
If you can handle the size and weight, then that would be the loudest single box choice.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

CarterKraft
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Location: DFW

Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#49 Post by CarterKraft »

Thanks Bruce, I am going to re-evaluate the max size I am ok with.

How would you compare the JAck, DR, Omni lines in my application.
Weldon Carter

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#50 Post by Seth »

Ommi or Jack for full range use

SLA Pro, OTop, and DR's for use with a Sub

Not to add to the confusion, but if you plan to use DSP (I would) and the size/form factor work for your intentions, I'd toss the Wedgehorn 10 in the list for consideration too.

Honestly, even with an Omni 15, it's not like you're going to get chest pounding bass outdoors or throughout a large room. I'd personally do a Jack Lite (10 or 12) or Wedgehorn 10 for the intended use. Either will cover the meat and potatos of music frequencies at an above average volume for any given amplifier.

Now... if you're starting to think of it as a gymnasium system and you have access to 120v wall power... a new list of possibilities opens up. A pair of Tuba 24's and shorty 2x6 SLA Pro's with an inexpensive amp with built in DSP would be a nice, compact, scaleable system with very reasonable output and bass response.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#51 Post by Bruce Weldy »

CarterKraft wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 1:54 pm Thanks Bruce, I am going to re-evaluate the max size I am ok with.

How would you compare the JAck, DR, Omni lines in my application.
As far a a single box, the Omni would be the one. Next in line would be the Jack. You could build one or two of 'em and it would be scalable. For full-range, the DRs and OmniTops are out - they need a sub.

Seth mentioned a WH10, but as those are designed for monitor use - while fine for onstage, they have a distinct bump in the vocal range and not nearly as good of a bottom end as a Jack 12 would have.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Grant Bunter
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#52 Post by Grant Bunter »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:08 pm Seth mentioned a WH10, but as those are designed for monitor use - while fine for onstage, they have a distinct bump in the vocal range and not nearly as good of a bottom end as a Jack 12 would have.
They will also reach Xmax at 100Hz with 80W if Beta 10a loaded. The WH10 will reach Xmax at way less power the lower you go in terms of bottom end.

I often think of the words "Intended design". There's good reason to use, in this case (in fact in most cases if that's the goal), cabs that are dedicated to full range output rather than trying something else that isn't intended for that design...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#53 Post by Seth »

I think you two guys could use some lessons in outside the box thinking :mrgreen:

Without any means of tuning the speaker, you guys may have a point. But, please allow me to retort. If each were tuned to the same response curve (with DSP) the WH10 very much holds it's own with the highest average sensitivity from 200Hz to 10kHz, which means it will require less power for a given output.

(Haven't seen these graph things used in a while. My first time. Pretty cool. Thanks Chris :thumbsup:)




Removing the larger Omni 15 to compare similar sized options and the WH10 is the clear winner from 125Hz-10kHz



And really, below 200Hz is nearly too close to call with these three.

Even if you fed the WH10 only 50w and the others 100w, the WH10 would have 113dB max at 60Hz on 50w, where the Jack 110 is only 1dB more with twice the power, at 114dB, and the Jack 12 117dB.

Realistically, this project needs to run on a light and compact battery. Every average dB of sensitivity adds up to less power to make the same volume. Sure, the Jacks and Omni options may technically be able to go louder, but they take more power to match the output of the WH10 and even more than that to exceed it. Which equates to reduced run times between battery charges. And ... it would really take 4-8 times the power to really appreciate the additional output capabilities of those options. IMO, running that much wattage on a compact battery pack is not a very realistic option.


Another thing that the WH10 has going for it is; if the speaker is going to be set on the ground, as I can see being likely for the type of use he's described, the standard designs will be aiming the sound at everyone's knees. Where the WH10 design aims it upward toward their ears.


That's my argument... from outside the box :lol:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#54 Post by Bruce Weldy »

However, I wouldn't build Jacks with the 2512, I'd use the 3012HO which will give you almost 50% more xmax over the 2510. 6.2 to 4.2......and that will let you add more power and go lower and louder.

Plus, my real-world experience with the WH10 that I built years ago didn't impress me with the low end or the flatness. The kick drum and bass farted it out too easily. As a monitor carrying mostly vocals, acoustic guitar etc. it was fine, but we were playing everything direct with E-drums and bass it just was more bottom end than it would handle. So, when it comes to bottom end and full range, I'd go with the Jack every time. It's the right tool for the job.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#55 Post by Seth »

Bruce Weldy wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:56 pm However, I wouldn't build Jacks with the 2512, I'd use the 3012HO which will give you almost 50% more xmax over the 2510. 6.2 to 4.2......and that will let you add more power and go lower and louder.
That's about a 3dB peak advantage. But, again... that's only if you have the power to take advantage of it... and in this case, a battery capable of supporting and sustaining the power for an acceptable amount of time.
Plus, my real-world experience with the WH10 that I built years ago didn't impress me with the low end or the flatness. The kick drum and bass farted it out too easily. As a monitor carrying mostly vocals, acoustic guitar etc. it was fine, but we were playing everything direct with E-drums and bass it just was more bottom end than it would handle. So, when it comes to bottom end and full range, I'd go with the Jack every time. It's the right tool for the job.
I recall reading that you never really got around to dialing those in. That you pulled them from service before the band got a sour taste in their mouth for DIY gear... or something to that effect. Is it at all possible that you just fed them too much bottom end, or more than would be in typical recorded content that the OP is interested in reproducing? Do you feel a Jack 110 would perform better in bass and kick monitor duty?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Grant Bunter
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#56 Post by Grant Bunter »

Sometimes it's just a waste of typing time to argue.

Let's see if we can provide the OP with real results from real cabs and not untested theories...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#57 Post by Seth »

Grant Bunter wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:20 pm Sometimes it's just a waste of typing time to argue.

Let's see if we can provide the OP with real results from real cabs and not untested theories...
Until now, I didn't see it as an argument. Just used the word in a playful manner in my previous post. If you want to be dismissive and not discuss the possibility any further, no sweat.

There are no "real" cabs for this situation and any solution is an untested theory... Your recommendation is an untested theory. Your dismissal of my recommendation is an untested theory... Unless you guys have been powering your tops with low wattage PC board amps and rechargeable battery packs and not telling me about the good news. You're aware that we're talking about a battery powered Bluetooth speaker, right? Something the wife and kids can easily tote to sports practices, picnics, and take camping. By your replies, it seems like you're not taking all the information into account, Grant. We're more than likely talking about something in the 50-100 watt range. Something that can be set on the ground or placed on a table. Not likely to see a speaker stand.

If you think that the response curve of the WH10 is somehow unsuitable for the intended use (if he intends on incorporating DSP, which would really be wise with any speaker choice anyway), that's fine. You said so, I disagreed and stated why I disagree. If what I said is off base, by all means contribute to the discussion and present your "argument", which doesn't have to be argumentative.

A cab is a cab. They're all tested. No theories. Some are better suited for certain tasks. The WH10 is well suited for this task, no matter how dismissive you choose to be. It ticks a lot of the requirements, fit's well within the limitations of the project, and adds an element the other options don't offer... built in tilt back.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#58 Post by Seth »

So, here's an interesting and possibly beneficial little tidbit. The DSP board that Parts Express sells looks to be ultra configurable and even has the option to use an enhancement they call "Super Bass", which is a psychoacoustic bass enhancement algorithm that most of the little bluetooth speakers use to make them sound like they have bass... when they actually don't. This function could possibly be taken advantage of if used with the speaker cabs we're talking about too. It could be deployed in combination with, or instead of boosting the low end output/attenuating highs to achieve the desired sound. It could also help in reducing the power draw from the amplifiers battery by not having to actually boost the bass region (as much).

Pretty neat little unit actually. Unbelievable price for what it's capable of.
Dayton Audio DSPB-K DSP Kernel Board and DSPB-KE Kernel DSP Expansion
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Grant Bunter
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#59 Post by Grant Bunter »

Sheesh man, you said argument, it's there in black and white, and, as always, the lack of subtlety and nuance in the internet in-between people and language from different countries has never changed. And now apparently that's my problem.

So, having said that, let's look at some of your comments again:
Do I understand this is for a battery powered Bluetooth type cab for listening that is ideally portable? Yes.
Has the OP agreed to re evaluate maximum acceptable size of cab, so they get the best they can, based on a full range cab? Yes.
Is the WH10 a full range cab? No
Is it's purpose as a full range cab? No
Could the WH10 be a possibility? Arguable, but not without DSP, for a number of reasons, already stated.

Does the Jack or omni need DSP? Probably, but at least you're not asking them to give bottom end response that was never a design consideration in the first place, at the same time.
Is there room to fit an amp into a Jack or Omni? Yes, without modification. You might also fit a battery compartment into an Omni TB.
Does it really need DSP for the OP's use? No, it's another thing that would need to be learnt about when all the OP wants to do is listen to some tunes. It's also an extra cost.
Would an Omni TB or Jack with filters as per plans, powered by a Bluetooth capable amp, do the job? Yes.
Does the built in tilt back aspect of a WH10 make it lose ground loading of the lower frequencies? Probably, and, as a monitor, if it does, that would be quite desirable, but as full range, when you're chasing every single bit of LF you can get, an extra 3dB due to ground loading is nice.
Is a pair of T24's and shorty SLA's a portable solution? No.

Not raised:
Where does the DSP and the associated amp fit on a WH10? Nowhere, there isn't room to fit it if built as per the plans.
What happens to power handling capability in a WH10 when you ask it to reproduce say 50Hz (when one might normally HP that in "normal" function)?
Well, instead of reaching Xmax at 100Hz with 80W, I think it would generous to consider half that at 50Hz, if the selected driver could even get there in a WH10.
I don't think that (or ground loading) was a consideration when you made the charts...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Seth
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Re: Bought a bunch of plans still haven't built anything...

#60 Post by Seth »

Grant, I consider you a friend and I value you opinion and experience. And it's not okay with me if you disregard my opinion and experience. You're right, there is always that lack of subtlety on the internet, and countries, languages, and differences in customs. I apologize for snapping back at ya bud.

Gonna respond to some of what you listed. If it's not there, I agree.
Grant Bunter wrote: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:37 am Sheesh man, you said argument, it's there in black and white...
I did say argument, in the context of making one not having one. Same word, different definitions for different contexts.

Is the WH10 a full range cab? No
Screenshot (81).png
Screenshot (81).png (50.5 KiB) Viewed 1689 times
Is it's purpose as a full range cab? No
The shape of the exterior of the box is purpose designed as a monitor, however it is a full range cab.
Could the WH10 be a possibility? Arguable, but not without DSP, for a number of reasons, already stated.
Ehhh... perhaps, perhaps not. After looking at the charts with them all together, the WH10 doesn't standout as needing much more or less than the others. May fly without it. Honestly, the bottom end of all of them will need a little attention to get a good balanced full range sound.

Does the Jack or omni need DSP? Probably, but at least you're not asking them to give bottom end response that was never a design consideration in the first place, at the same time.
Except that bottom end response was a design consideration of the WH10. It's the WH6 and WH8 that were not intended to be full range cabs.

Does the built in tilt back aspect of a WH10 make it lose ground loading of the lower frequencies? Probably, and, as a monitor, if it does, that would be quite desirable, but as full range, when you're chasing every single bit of LF you can get, an extra 3dB due to ground loading is nice.
I don't know either. If placed on it's 45º orientation, it put's the bottom of the horn up 8½" off the ground which is a quarter wavelength of 400Hz.
But in all reality, if that's a valid point, you could simply turn the cab over so it's flat too, offering the option of either configuration, whichever provides the best outcome given the situation/venue.

Not raised:
Where does the DSP and the associated amp fit on a WH10? Nowhere, there isn't room to fit it if built as per the plans.
I hadn't taken that into consideration. Although, I guarantee there's room. I could put it all in the WH6 I'm building. They're just PC boards and the largest is the amplifier at 4.8" L x 3.6" W x 1.5" H. Might be a challenge to get a decent battery in the WH6, but I'd bet there's a configuration that would work in the WH10. If not, a little piggy back deal might even turn out to be handier than if it were internal.
What happens to power handling capability in a WH10 when you ask it to reproduce say 50Hz (when one might normally HP that in "normal" function)?
I don't know for sure. I'd wager it would handle 50watts like a champ, possibly more. Might exceed xMax, but xMax isn't the end of the world if it doesn't sound too bad.
Well, instead of reaching Xmax at 100Hz with 80W, I think it would generous to consider half that at 50Hz, if the selected driver could even get there in a WH10.
If you look at the chart, it's clear it will get there. Bill could say for sure how many watts it will take to reach xMax with the premium driver option at 50Hz. If he takes the time to run the numbers in Hornresp, I'm guessing one of us will be surprised at the number.
I don't think that (or ground loading) was a consideration when you made the charts...
Other than the 50Hz thing... You're right. I hadn't taken those points into consideration. Although, I'd wager no one else had either. Glad you brought them up. :thumbsup:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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