Titan48 driver question

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jemo1234567890
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Titan48 driver question

#1 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Hi guys,

first of all sorry if this question was asked in the past but I didn't find a topic with these drivers.

I was surfing in the www and asked myself if the following FaitalPro drivers would be a good choice for a Titan48:
12HP1060 (4 Ohm) https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Lo ... =201050121
12RS1066 (16 Ohm) https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Lo ... =201050127

Here in europe they are a very good alternative (in price) for the Eminence or the 18sound.

I'm planning to build a double 12" Titan48 so I would wire the 12HP1060 (4 Ohm) in series or the 12RS1066 (16 Ohm) in parallel to power them probably.

The parameters of this two drivers are in the range for the Titan48 but I would like to ask if I can get a gain in performance in comparison to the 3012lf because the Faitals have a higher Vd AND higher power rating.
I know they are a little deeper than the 3012lf but not so deep than the 3015lf, so this wouldn't be a problem I would say. Am I right?

Thank you very much for your opinions to these drivers.

Best regards
Josh
Last edited by jemo1234567890 on Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#2 Post by Grant Bunter »

When you ask about drivers, you need to provide a link to the TS parameters please.
Bill won't answer without linked specs.

You see, it's not just Vd, and higher power rating, because some drivers are simply not suited to horn loaded cabs, or their TS specs don't provide as good a result as already recommended drivers.

I hope the answer is yes for you, it's great to save money sometimes.
The opposite is also said here often enough, buy once, cry once...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jemo1234567890
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Titan48 driver question

#3 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Thank you Grant.

Urls are added to the original post

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

The answer is on page one of your plans: Maximum output isn’t about watts, it’s about driver displacement (T/S spec Vd)...When comparing various drivers don’t look at the watts, look at the displacement.

jemo1234567890
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Location: Germany

Re: Titan48 driver question

#5 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Hi Bill,

yes I know that's the reason for asking about these two drivers because the Vd of the FaitalPro 12RS1066 (16 Ohm) is 617,5 cm3 and of the FaitalPro 12HP1060 (4 Ohm) is 644,9 cm3 plus the higher voltage limit.
My question now is if these drivers are suitable for a double 12" Titan48 and if the performance would be even better than with dual Lab12s?

Thanks a lot.

Rich4349
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#6 Post by Rich4349 »

Vd for the Lab12 looks to be 658.71.
2 DR250s, 2 27" Lab15 T-60s, 2 30" Neo Titan 39s, 1 Autotuba...and looking for more!

jemo1234567890
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#7 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Hi Rich,

you're right. The Lab12 has higher Vd than the Faitals.

So am I right that a Lab12 with a Vd of 658,71 by 400 W is more efficient than a driver with relatively the same Vd but with a higher power rating because the Lab12 has this high displacement with a much lower voltage?

In the plan is written that chamber reducers are needed with a Lab12 and a cab wider than 14". If I would like to build a double Lab12 loaded Titan48 with a panel width of 28" do I need a chamber reducer between the two Labs? In the SketchUp I didn't see chamber reducers with a double loaded cab. When do I need chamber reducers with the Labs exactly?

I know that a double Lab12 loaded cab will be 3 times and more heavier than loaded with 3012lf but I'm still young and have a healthy back :lol:
But I want the best performance with one cab.

Thank you very much for all your help guys.

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#8 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Using a reducer with a LAB 212 isn't addressed because of the weight of LABs. For the most part you use twelves because you want to keep the cabinet size and weight down, which is defeated by using two LAB 12. It's more practical with neo 12s, but if size isn't a problem you get more bang per buck with fifteens.

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Seth
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#9 Post by Seth »

jemo1234567890 wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:35 pm In the plan is written that chamber reducers are needed with a Lab12 and a cab wider than 14". If I would like to build a double Lab12 loaded Titan48 with a panel width of 28" do I need a chamber reducer between the two Labs?
The minimum width for twelves is 15 inches external, using 14 inch wide panels. So, 28" panel width, 29" external cab shouldn't need reducers. That's the narrow option. The next size up would be a 30.5" external, 29.5" panel cab. That width and above should require 4 reducers.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

jemo1234567890
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#10 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:41 pm [...]It's more practical with neo 12s, but if size isn't a problem you get more bang per buck with fifteens.
I'm sorry Bill, I think that my first post could give the impression that I want the most bang per buck because I wrote the prices for the Faitals here in europe.
But that isn't the case.
I'm looking for the most efficient solution for getting most output (displacement) per volts (or watts). And all your charts show that a double 12" cab always outperform a single 15" with the 2,83 V.
For the most displacement per stacked cab height with the narrow width for 2x12 and 1x15 I get the following chart:
Titan48_driver-comparison.PNG
From this point of view you're right Bill that we will get more output with a fifteen and the ranking will be
1.) 1x Lab15
2.) 2x Lab12
3.) 1x 3015lf
4.) 2x 3012lf

I hope you can help me with my decision.


SethRocksYou wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:30 pm The minimum width for twelves is 15 inches external, using 14 inch wide panels. So, 28" panel width, 29" external cab shouldn't need reducers. That's the narrow option. The next size up would be a 30.5" external, 29.5" panel cab. That width and above should require 4 reducers.
I think for a double twelve Lab the narrow width need one reducer so the narrow panel width would be 28,5" and the external width would be 29,5" because we need a reducer every 14" for one Lab12.
For the next size up you descriped you will need only 3 reducers because with 4 reducers and the panel width of 29.5" you wrote, the driver wouldn't see 14".
If we will build a double Lab12 even wider (so we will need 4 reducers) we have to build a cab with a panel width 30" and wider.

Maybe I am wrong and it's to early for math :wink:

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#11 Post by Grant Bunter »

error
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jemo1234567890
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Titan48 driver question

#12 Post by jemo1234567890 »

What do you mean with "error" Grant?

Grant Bunter
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Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
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Re: Titan48 driver question

#13 Post by Grant Bunter »

I typed up something, but it was wrong. Apologies, but couldn't leave nothing at all...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Titan48 driver question

#14 Post by Grant Bunter »

Ok, I think you need to tidy up a few things in your calculations.

For example the 2 x Faital pro 12 @ 4 ohms in series that "takes" 1000W/driver.
If it really could do that, you would need an amp capable of 4050W just to get there. Is that realistic? Not really.

You can also chop out all the loads that are less than 2 ohms overall on cab count because:
You don't want to run amps at their lowest rated value for any length of time.
Even with a 2 ohm load capable amp, there will be a portion of the band pass that is less than 2 ohms with regards to the cabs.
You would manipulate series and parallel wiring to end up with higher overall loads per channel to maximise cab counts per amp instead.

I can tell you this. If you're looking for the most output per cab possible, you're probably not looking to build as many cabs as you will ultimately need.
If you're hitting the limiter with the cabs you have, you need to build more.
And when you go down that route, you need to double cab count to add +6dB...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

jemo1234567890
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:51 am
Location: Germany

Re: Titan48 driver question

#15 Post by jemo1234567890 »

Thank you very much for your reply Grant.

I know that the 4 Ohm version in series in one cab will need a lot of amp power. But this isn't unrealistic if you will have a look to the new Powersoft X4L which should deliver over 4 kW @ 8 Ohm.
But you are right with the question "is it worth all the background to power up this version of driver wiring reasonable."

I know that we shouldn't push an amp with 2 ohm loads. This should be plain I would say.

But I read an answer of Bill to the question "how to calculate the max voltage for a Ciare SW12.00SW":
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:17 am The voltage limit is determined by xmax, not Pe. The limit with the Ciare is 60v. At 8 ohms that's 450w. Drive it with 1000v and you will destroy the driver. That's the case in any cabinet, not just the T30. In a typical bass reflex cab the limit would be lower.
And
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:39 am
christmeier wrote:Many thanks for that!
I am using the 4 ohm version of the driver though, does that change anything in terms of max voltage? Still 60v ?
Take it down to 50v.
I don't know what's the math behind this. Maybe Bill could explain me this.
And if the voltage limit for the Faitals are lower than the 1000 W @ 4 Ohm or 16 Ohm than the amp power shouldn't be a problem I would say.
If I understand how to calculate the voltage limits in relationship to the Xmax than there are so many interesting drivers (especially 15 inches drivers) which have a very high power rating on paper but also a high Vd.

For example:
B&C 15DS100
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/ ... /15DS100-8

B&C 15SW115
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/ ... /8/15sw115

LaVoce WAF154.00
http://www.lavocespeakers.com/single-product/?id=67

Ciare 15.00SW
https://www.ciare.com/prodotto/?codice=15.00SW

Oberton 15NSW600 (maybe a little bit to deep)
https://www.oberton.com/en/products/neo ... sw600.html

Oberton 15XB1200
https://www.oberton.com/en/products/fer ... ml?start=2

All in all should be the power rating no matter if the drivers have a higher displacement they should reach a higher SPL with the same voltage limit as the recommended drivers listed in the plan, or am I wrong?

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