BillFitzmaurice.info

I use my Otop 12s and T39s frequently with a local country cover band. Lately they've been grumbling about the sound, asking me to look at JBL or QSC speakers. I finally pinned them down and asked them: What is bringing this on? What are you hearing or what are people telling you? Their response is always: "We sound thin, when I step out in front it sounds thin, other bands are using powered speakers, maybe we should use powered speakers". Of course I was pretty irritated and said: "I've been running live sound for over thirty years. I do not tell you what guitars to play or how to play, so I don't appreciate being told what speakers to use, but let me ask you, when I play music between sets or before a show, does that sound thin?" Their response was: "No, it doesn't sound thin then". Now we are on to something. My response of course was: "Then it cannot be the speakers, can it? I use the same speakers for your music as I do for recorded music, so we are down to the mix, or the program material" Of course this was not what they wanted to hear, and they started to go on about fifteen inch three way tops they have heard at other shows, Their buddy's K12s, etc. I'm afraid I will have to part company with them, despite being a fairly well paying and regular gig, as I am obviously not fulfilling their visual expectations. It doesn't seem fathomable to them that one or two Otop12's per side can deliver more sound than a speaker thrice the size (and weight). "I'm sorry" I told them, "I'm simply not lifting any more fifteen inch three way enclosures any longer. Been there, done that, and my Otops blow them out of the water." Not to worry, I've a couple other regular bands and one venue who would like my work exclusively.
I just had to vent.

Yeah, those situations are exasperating. Have you done some iPhone videos of 'em? While they are hyped a little on the high end, they always show how much ooomph is coming through.

I'm very fortunate to work with two bands that are very good players - thus, when I make 'em sound good, they get a whole lot of feedback from the crowd and their friends about how good they sounded. Maybe your guys just aren't getting that feedback from the crowd....maybe there is a reason and it rests in their hands....literally.

But, you make a point about the whole powered speaker thing. That seems to be all the rage - not only with the bands, but with some PA guys too. I did a show two weeks ago, mixing on a JBL system that was hired in. We hit it really hard and it was distorted as hell....and you should have seen all of the cables running everywhere. Every one of the 14 speakers being used had two wires running to it - signal and power. Wires everywhere....looked crappy and the guy who provided the system was running around checking the back of every box to make sure the knobs were all in the right place. Total cluster#$^%! The OTs and T39s would have sounded much better.

Then Saturday, we played at a small venue. After we finished, two guys told me how much better we were than the band the night before - you could hear our vocals and theirs were muddy and buried. I know that other band and they are very talented, but their high-end JBLs didn't match up well at all to my BFM.

You might ask the band to tell you who they think sounds good, then have them take you to a gig to listen. They might be hard-pressed to find someone they think sounds better.

Maybe one of these would help:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/QSC-2-75x1-Chro ... Sw8d9Ur0ro

http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-Plastic-Log ... xyO2dRi5pI

Bruce Weldy wrote:...and you should have seen all of the cables running everywhere. Every one of the 14 speakers being used had two wires running to it - signal and power. Wires everywhere....looked crappy and the guy who provided the system was running around checking the back of every box to make sure the knobs were all in the right place. Total cluster#$^%!

Priceless imagery there Bruce.

Won't see that described in a brochure anytime soon.

A few weekends ago I was involved in a outdoors gig that covered a couple of days, but not a festival per se.
It involved 3 sound guys, and the equipment of two. The remaining guy, who flew in, was the production manager, did the actual mixing, and is also manager of the headline act.

For the Friday night, my rig was used, for DJing, a spot for an Aussie guy on acoustic guitar who is a well known singer/songwriter more often than not based in Nashville, but who has come home for a while, guest speakers, announcements.
The production manager was simply astounded with my DR250's/T39's. As they will, he totally flattened the FOH EQ (even though I told him the EQ was the way it was so that response was flat via RTA and tweaks), then pulled 800Hz. What astounded him, was, for his ears, that was it!

There was some guest speakers the next morning, so after that, my rig was packed up.

Saturday involved a melding of gear (though not cabs). The other sound guy has 2 x JBL 618s's and 4 x JBL 625's. Obviously, outdoors, the 2 x Jaybee subs weren't going to cut it, but 6 months ago I was given a major brand name dual 18" sub (someone had put a forklift through the side of it, and, thanks to what I have learned here, I repaired the defect and loaded it with the drivers belonging to it, but it was minus the onboard power amp/processing), so that was added as well, as an aux feed via my DCX.

Hearing the 2 PA's back to back reminded me that direct radiators (powered or not) sound totally different to Bill's designs. All those things add up to those that can't tell the difference. The brand name, powered, the harmonic distortion (which never sounds quite so bad on stage IMO), the big heavy boxes, the hype etc etc often add up to what it is people think they should be having as PA.

Bruce touched on it. As a sound guy, you do what you can. You may be able to improve a thin vocal sound from the frontman, make a thin guitar sound fatter, make choked untuned drums sound halfway ok, but you can only do so to a limited extent.
An example; my drum kit was used at the show. I tuned it, and sound checked it, and the PM was extremely happy with the drum sound. The drummer turned up, changed the tuning, put moongel everywhere, and totally took the life out of the kit. It suddenly sounded like cardboard, but that's how he plays, so that's how it stayed. The PM was unaware of that until half way through the show, when I told him.

So, don't be to bothered mate. You know what you're doing, and what you're doing that with. You know it works well. Sometimes it's almost impossible to make some acts happy. If you lose that band as a regular act, while it might hurt the pocket, you won't have to deal with the nonsense any more...

Grant Bunter wrote:an Aussie guy on acoustic guitar who is a well known singer/songwriter more often than not based in Nashville,

Do you happen to know the guy's name? I'm currently working in Nashville and would like to check him out.

jimbo7 wrote: Do you happen to know the guy's name? I'm currently working in Nashville and would like to check him out.

I certainly do, but he is home in Australia for a while...

Grant Bunter wrote:

jimbo7 wrote: Do you happen to know the guy's name? I'm currently working in Nashville and would like to check him out.

I certainly do, but he is home in Australia for a while...

d'oh!

Couple of things I get from reading this thread.

If it's a good customer you want to hang on to them. There aren't too many around that care enough to hire out their sound.

You should always try to be objective about your mix. Some bands want a certain sound and if it doesn't go against your grain too much then make it happen. If your afraid mixing it the way they want will have a negative effect on other possible customers that's a call you will have to make. I've passed on bands that I knew I could not make sound good (should have passed on a couple more) because I thought people would hold me responsible for what they heard.

Mixing for 30 years doesn't mean anything. I know and have witnessed people with more experience suck at it. Doing something a long time doesn't mean your good, it means you've been doing it a long time.

There is also the possibility that someone wants your gig and is whispering sweet critiques in their ear. Sounds like they don't trust you yet. You've got to figure out a way to build that. Being defensive won't get you there. Listening to them and addressing their concerns will.

Now if they are just a bunch jerks that think everyone else is the problem all the time, forget all of the above and explain to them it's tough to play and sing with no teeth and broken fingers.

My 2 cents.

guitarkeys.com wrote:I know and have witnessed people with more experience suck at it. Doing something a long time doesn't mean your good, it means you've been doing it a long time.

I think you'll find that is every profession!

This is sales, which seems to affect all areas of life.

WE all know you're an expert, not a museum-piece, but anyone questioning you doesn't. Calling on their faith in your history may not be the best move, as it's what all the quacks I interact with use. "Great, you've been wrong for 30 years and haven't thought to educate yourself," is what I hear in my head.

"JBL and other brand names are great for beginners -- it's gets you a full sound instantly. [Affirmation of their knowledge] However with any kind of volume or multiple instruments and that fullness becomes mud and distortion. [Easy level of education] These custom cabinets use the same technology and concepts as the top-end cabinets selling for 20x JBL and QSC. [Increase your worth in their eyes] Anyone, even non-musical folk, who close their eyes and listen to the systems side-by-side can easily hear the difference. [True but persuasive technique] I'd love for you to be able to hear yourselves from where the audience sits, I'm really proud of your sound [Confidence, comaraderie] "

Gauss wrote:This is sales, which seems to affect all areas of life.

WE all know you're an expert, not a museum-piece, but anyone questioning you doesn't. Calling on their faith in your history may not be the best move, as it's what all the quacks I interact with use. "Great, you've been wrong for 30 years and haven't thought to educate yourself," is what I hear in my head.

"JBL and other brand names are great for beginners -- it's gets you a full sound instantly. [Affirmation of their knowledge] However with any kind of volume or multiple instruments and that fullness becomes mud and distortion. [Easy level of education] These custom cabinets use the same technology and concepts as the top-end cabinets selling for 20x JBL and QSC. [Increase your worth in their eyes] Anyone, even non-musical folk, who close their eyes and listen to the systems side-by-side can easily hear the difference. [True but persuasive technique] I'd love for you to be able to hear yourselves from where the audience sits, I'm really proud of your sound [Confidence, comaraderie] "

All good advice.

It's also a good idea to not wait for an issue....take a couple of iPhone videos and let 'em hear 'em. Take the bull by the horns - if they know how good they sound, they won't be so enamored of the greener grass on the other side.

I have been teaching and training the band that I work with about sound regularly since we started. That, along with the feedback from their friends and family has solidified my spot as the go-to guy for sound. They have absolute trust in what I do. But, they know I'm not resting on my laurels - when I'm struggling with an instrument or vocal, I talk to 'em about it on the breaks. That way they know that I'm always trying to make it better and that I've set the bar pretty high for myself. If you always mix with that in mind, it will never get boring and there is a wonderful sense of fulfillment when you just flat kill it.

Another thought: When I step out from behind the speakers when I DJ, the overwhelming bass disappears into the mix. Perhaps that's why they think it's thin out front, compared with behind, it's balanced.

After thirty years of mixing I think I do OK. Here are some mixes:

http://acash.com/buck/bnb.htm

I guess I got a little impatient when calling my experience into play, but calling my sound "thin" felt a bit like calling their playing "shitty" and I really didn't need the grief. You can hear for yourself.

And some board mixes of another band I like to work with:
http://getonupfunk.com/yardparty/

dswpro wrote:After thirty years of mixing I think I do OK. Here are some mixes:

http://acash.com/buck/bnb.htm

I guess I got a little impatient when calling my experience into play, but calling my sound "thin" felt a bit like calling their playing "shitty" and I really didn't need the grief. You can hear for yourself.

And some board mixes of another band I like to work with:
http://getonupfunk.com/yardparty/

The best thing you can do with groups like that is just tell them "no problem, I can fatten it up for you" and pretend to play with the eq... Or actually change something if you feel like it. It's their sound... Give them what they want (or at least pretend to). They'll think you're easy to work with and you can create a suspension of disbelief that makes them easier to work with. We call it "psychic eq" and it works great.