New Mixer Thoughts

The hows and whys of running sound.
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NukePooch
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#61 Post by NukePooch »

BrentEvans, on your dissemination of my comparison, I offer that nothing you wrote changes my mind that the boards are very similar, and either would be a good choice. Nothing between them makes one an easy win over the other.

On the Behringer name, I never considered buying Behringer anything until I was looking for a board for my church a couple years back. I contacted a friend who runs a production/rental company that I used to work for. He told me that he had bought one X32, had it a couple months, then bought six more. On his recommendation, my church bought one, and I bought my X32 Rack shortly thereafter. All of the consoles have been running flawlessly, with the exception of one XLR input on the back of one of the rental return boards. The XLR jack failed, and the lock broke. He soldered a new one in, no problem.

He likes them so much, he just bought two Midas boards. He says that a lot of people will pay more for Midas rental just due to the Behringer name...LOL.

I go by real world reviews and experience more often than than not. I know better than to rely on a name...The worse experience I ever had with broken new gear was actually Soundcraft stuff... I was part of an install company that bought three Soundcraft Spirit GB (had to look them up) 16 channel boards to replace Mackie 1604's in installs. All three Spirit GB's sounded awesome...and had multiple channels DOA. Soundcraft sent out three new main circuit boards (months later, I think they swam them across the ocean), only two worked fine. They sent one more. Nope. It wasn't until the third board they sent that the Spirit worked as intended. By this time, the customer told us to stuff them and we ended up installing three new Mackie 1604 VLZ's. Oddly enough, the Spirits worked well from then on. LOL. It wouldn't change my mind about buying Soundcraft, only about buying Soundcraft Spirit GB's...

It's funny you mentioned Peavey, because I've had experience with a string of bad Peavey gear back in the day...but I keep going back to them. More likely than not, I'll be getting some Crest ProLite amps (which are Peavey IPR's)...
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NukePooch
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#62 Post by NukePooch »

Bruce Weldy wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:Argue is such a strong word. :lol:

Brent is a really good reviewer as he has used a lot of the gear that we discuss. He did an excellent job in comparing the two boards. I didn't see the back and forth as an argument, but rather two products being represented by users who like one or the other. That's good healthy debate and helps everyone here to make more-informed decisions.

Personally, I use Presonus boards........because I like the color. :fruit:
I agree. I'm not sure how Brent feels, but I wasn't arguing at all. I'm enjoying the back and forth.

Now, you want to hear argument? Let's talk Presonus Fat Channel. How much more could they cram into one tiny little indecipherable space? Makes my head hurt and my eyes water even just thinking of it.

:lol:


(actually, probably half a gig and I'd have it down, no problem...)
Built:
4 Jack 112L- 3012HO, melded array
17.5 wide AutoTuba with Infinity 860w
6 Wedgehorn W6 w/ Panel Mount Piezos
2 T48 Slims (15" wide) with 3012LF
4 T48 Fattys (32" wide) with 3015LF

NukePooch
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#63 Post by NukePooch »

Chris_Allen wrote:I used to take a lot more risks on brands when I was younger, probably because I was a lot more responsive in terms of time, money and effort.

Now, I'm quite happy for other people to take the risks and join the band wagon when everything has been proven.
I agree, which is why I'd wait for others to get real world on tech before I spend my 2 cents (weekly paycheck) on something.
I don't want to be an unpaid beta tester...

Same goes for the BFM stuff. I had heard not-so-great things about horns in pro sound. After all, why don't people use horns more?

The reviews on this forum sold me. Either the BFM kool-aid was a special kind of magically delicious, or the overwhelmingly positive reviews actually were true...

Now, if Bill would just put out plans for a DIY digi board...
Built:
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heavybdrums
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#64 Post by heavybdrums »

heavybdrums wrote:Brent I have seen the X32 in use several times, and my impression has been "what an ugly board, where are the controls?". Ok this doesn't really take the cake, and I'm sure if I wound up with one I'd learn to use it well. However I have been holding myself back in regards to Behringer stuff but you just came right out and said what I think;
$100 is a small price to pay not to have Behringer stamped on your device. Si Wins. :mrgreen:


However I might have said "$100 is insignificant in a purchase that can be $2000", but really meant what you said.

And that being said I am the least interested in the X32.
Partly the reason I said the above is not necessarily the name Behringer, it is because I like one knob one function. I like a physical board with no necessity to use a scrolling menu type screen. I want a dedicated eq, dynamics, pan, gain, gate, and if possible effects section with physical knobs for control of these, I really don't want to scroll through a menu screen to find these.
$100 or even $400 is not going to sway me one iota.
My philosophy whenever buying anything I care about is to bypass the low end of the price range (either gonna hate using it or it's gonna break), and equally bypass the highest in the price range ( you have usually passed the point of cost/benefit, and entered into the point of diminishing returns).
Also I have witnessed some of Behringer's past inadequacies (ie their speakers and analog mixers).
In addition most companies that have been in audio for a long time have several different price points of gear. Peavey for example, has a line of gear un serious (garage band) musicians will buy, but would probably be a waste of money. Peavey keeps making it because people keep buying it. They also have high end gear any touring band or pro sound guy would feel comfortable using. I feel that this manufacture of high quality gear filters down into the lower price point gear. Behringer has only the low price point gear.
Not saying they can't make great stuff, they can, but mostly the reliance on the Screen gui instead of dedicated knobs for control is the kicker for the X32 for me.
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David Raehn
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#65 Post by David Raehn »

I am slowly, and I mean VERY slowly, digesting all of these arguments and discussion points because I am currently all analog. I want to get into the digital realm, but there is too much hype at this point in the game (and I'm not flush with cash at the moment).

I figure that if I do my homework and listen to discussions like these, I will be better prepared to make a smart purchase. In the meantime, I have to think about building a 24 channel mic splitter.... :roll:
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Bruce Weldy
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#66 Post by Bruce Weldy »

NukePooch wrote:
Bruce Weldy wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:Argue is such a strong word. :lol:

Brent is a really good reviewer as he has used a lot of the gear that we discuss. He did an excellent job in comparing the two boards. I didn't see the back and forth as an argument, but rather two products being represented by users who like one or the other. That's good healthy debate and helps everyone here to make more-informed decisions.

Personally, I use Presonus boards........because I like the color. :fruit:
I agree. I'm not sure how Brent feels, but I wasn't arguing at all. I'm enjoying the back and forth.

Now, you want to hear argument? Let's talk Presonus Fat Channel. How much more could they cram into one tiny little indecipherable space? Makes my head hurt and my eyes water even just thinking of it.

:lol:


(actually, probably half a gig and I'd have it down, no problem...)

I love the fat channel....it's a piece of cake. It's essentially a channel strip laid out horizontally.

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"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#67 Post by Bruce Weldy »

David Raehn wrote:I am slowly, and I mean VERY slowly, digesting all of these arguments and discussion points because I am currently all analog. I want to get into the digital realm, but there is too much hype at this point in the game (and I'm not flush with cash at the moment).

I figure that if I do my homework and listen to discussions like these, I will be better prepared to make a smart purchase. In the meantime, I have to think about building a 24 channel mic splitter.... :roll:
I made the jump a few years ago and never looked back. I've got two Presonus 16.4.2 boards and have had no problems.

I haven't jumped into this discussion concerning Presonus since the original issue was between the other two.

I'm very pleased with the Presonus stuff and miss it every time I have to do a gig on an analog board......which I did last Friday and Saturday night. At least they had some gates to put on the drums.

6 - T39 3012LF
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"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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BrentEvans
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#68 Post by BrentEvans »

The Presonus stuff isn't too bad.. but sends on faders is WAY better than the way Presonus does it. The lack of motorized faders is inexcusable at the price point they charge for the thing.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#69 Post by Bruce Weldy »

BrentEvans wrote:The Presonus stuff isn't too bad.. but sends on faders is WAY better than the way Presonus does it. The lack of motorized faders is inexcusable at the price point they charge for the thing.
I don't have any problem with the using the encoders for the aux sends.....it must be easy, even the drummer I work with knows how to adjust his mix.

I've never really cared whether or not I have motorized faders. Not that big a deal to me. However, the one thing I wish I had was recallable gain control.

Anyway, there are some good options out there now in digital boards....and the more they compete, the better it is for us as far as price/features.

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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#70 Post by BrentEvans »

Bruce Weldy wrote: I've never really cared whether or not I have motorized faders. Not that big a deal to me. However, the one thing I wish I had was recallable gain control.
It becomes a bit more of a big deal when you mix on a tablet more frequently. The fader locate business is cheesy...

Presonus really opened up the industry. They were the first to have an affordable digital mixer with enough feature to be really usable. Before that, about the only option below $5k was the O1V, and that was really only 12 channels without extra hardware and still didn't have recallable trims. Anything bigger than that was out of reach for most entry level operators.

It's going to be hard for Presonus to compete with Soundcraft upping the game with the Si Impact. It'll be very interesting to see what the next iterations of Studiolive and Allen & Heath Qu look like.
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heavybdrums
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#71 Post by heavybdrums »

Bruce Weldy wrote:
BrentEvans wrote:The Presonus stuff isn't too bad.. but sends on faders is WAY better than the way Presonus does it. The lack of motorized faders is inexcusable at the price point they charge for the thing.
I don't have any problem with the using the encoders for the aux sends.....it must be easy, even the drummer I work with knows how to adjust his mix.

I've never really cared whether or not I have motorized faders. Not that big a deal to me. However, the one thing I wish I had was recallable gain control.

Anyway, there are some good options out there now in digital boards....and the more they compete, the better it is for us as far as price/features.
Here is a scenario:
I have recorded a show or studio recording (multi track) and am working on mixdown. I have set up the board (faders, eq, dyn, and fx) and have things the way I want them to sound. I have mixed a few songs and it sounds good.
When mixing I find that beyond 6-8 hours of work on something I have to take a break and come back a few hours, or the next day, relisten to what I have done when fresh and continue with the rest of the recordings.
At the end of the last mixing session I have saved a scene of all settings on the board. This next session could even be a week later or more as more songs for a album have been recorded in the interim.
I want all of the songs for an album or show to sound like they belong to the same show/album. This would be easy with recallable preamps and fader positions as well as all other parameters, for not only the recording of subsequent songs on a collection but for subsequent mix sessions.
For this scenario, is why motorized faders and recallable preamps would be important for me, not to mention the ease of resetting up live sound in a venue or band I have already run sound for before.
I have done many long term recording projects where I would have loved to have all these settings saved so I can return where I left off. A current project has been in the works for about half a year, it is done now, ( I am currently making copies !!) but, if i could have had these parameters saved I would not have had to spend so much time trying to make the mixes sound like they belong on the same album, due to trying to reset up and have all the songs sound sonically similar.
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#72 Post by Bruce Weldy »

No question that motorized faders are great in the studio....use 'em myself on the studio console.

Live hasn't been an issue.

I use the iPad occasionally....had to a week ago. I use the fader locate....works fine. Without it, you'd really have a problem. But, without moving faders - I can't think of a better way to do it.

The new AI series is out and has a bunch more features, just not moving faders. I can still do what I need to on the classic. If I was starting over, I'd certainly check out the soundcraft.

But, if it ain't broke - I don't try to fix it. :mrgreen:

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"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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heavybdrums
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#73 Post by heavybdrums »

Bruce Weldy wrote:No question that motorized faders are great in the studio....use 'em myself on the studio console.

Live hasn't been an issue.

I use the iPad occasionally....had to a week ago. I use the fader locate....works fine. Without it, you'd really have a problem. But, without moving faders - I can't think of a better way to do it.

The new AI series is out and has a bunch more features, just not moving faders. I can still do what I need to on the classic. If I was starting over, I'd certainly check out the soundcraft.

But, if it ain't broke - I don't try to fix it. :mrgreen:
Fader locate would work in the above scenario just as well as moving faders, and certainly better than the Yamaha AW 1600 all in one recording desk I have been using for about 10 years. The Yamaha saves all other parameters but just not fader locations or preamp levels. It is a fine 8 channel input desk for $1000 for all it can do but what you have is what you have, it's not upgradeable. I would never get rid of it but certainly time to upgrade, not only the recording aspect but also the live aspect of my rig. For my live rig I have a Yamaha EMX 5000 (the older desk type not the box type). Its a fine analog small powered mixer, but also time to upgrade.
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#74 Post by heavybdrums »

in my research so far I seem to really like the Soundcraft sI impact, nice features, nice workflow/configurability, nice price.
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Re: New Mixer Thoughts

#75 Post by heavybdrums »

heavybdrums wrote:in my research so far I seem to really like the Soundcraft sI impact, nice features, nice workflow/configurability, nice price.
or is it the Allen & Heath QU 32,,,decisions decisions. $900 difference..that I would notice.
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4x Dr250 Deltalite II 2510
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