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I get that a "hard limiter" can be setup to provide a maximum output for any input above a certain level. I have that now. But, it's not working. DJs who get on my system continue to push the DJ mixer into the red and produce an overcompressed mess...and I get the blame.

I am looking for an effect to help me keep overzealous DJs in check. I want a limiter that will allow the "maximum" volume to be passed when the mixer is at some 0dB level of output.

BUT...if the DJ mixer level is raised above the 0dB level, I want the final output to go down from that 0dB point. So, if the DJ mixer is at +6dB, I want the output of the limiter to be -6dB (or whatever ratio I set).

Is there such a device? Is there a way to setup the DEQ or DCX to have that effect?

Interesting!

My immediate thought is that there is no such thing as a true brick wall limiter, as such.
I wonder how you have your system set up, as Bruce Weldy has often said in the past, once set up, it shouldn't matter what you do to the faders, your limited voltage stays the same.

We all set gains and structure so we achieve, near enough, brick wall limiting.
And when we run our own systems, we don't push past that.

Yours is a different scenario.
I know heaps of DJ's who, for whatever reason (perhaps even "everyone else does it") thinks pushing harder sounds better/louder, not "let the PA do the work".
They don't seem to think of, or more particularly hear, the distortion introduced into the system, and, as you know, it sounds horrible.

Here's a few ideas;
Put a DI on each output channel. When they push past where they should, flick the pads down from Standard to the 10dB pad.
That won't get them out of the red on the mixer, but at least drops signal intensity.

Insert a limiter over the DJ (if you use a mixing desk) inputs.

Or, increase the brick wall limiting on the fly on the Driverack/DCX by a few dB when they get to +6.

While it's kinda outside the usual role, at least with DCX (not sure with driverack series, don't have any) you could also implement the dynamic limiter across the required passband.

Other than standing over their shoulder with a big stick and an angry glare when they get into the red, I don't envy your position.
Sadly, none of these will change the distortion that is introduced by the DJ themselves when running into the red...

AFAIK, the only way to control that is to run the DJ mixer outputs into an aux mixer and "ride the faders". One of the Ipad/Iphone controlled mixers would make for a wireless solution but you would still have to be there. The problem with automatic gain controls "AGC's" is that they don't know when a quiet part of the song is supposed to be quite so they make a pumping effect. Camcorders have them built in for the microphone and are infamous for that. Commercial units used for broadcast cost $k's.

I feel your pain, been working with DJ's for many years now. Some get it, others develop into good gain habits over time after many "educational" talks, and others will stand there while you explain to them that "red means bad sound", then the second you walk away, they'll do a shoulder check to make sure you're gone, then crank it again . I have a good friend that DJ's, promotes touring acts, and we've been working together for about 6 years now. Red the second he gets on stage, I'll turn it down, 2 seconds later ... red again. He knows better but has told me he can't help himself, I think it's an addiction like revving the gas on a muscle car.

The only thing you can do with the DXC/DEQ units is to face one to the DJ in a good eye level position so he can see the red lights come on. They don't always look down at their mixers VU meters when they are rocking out. Even a spare unit of some kind that has a VU meter on it that goes red can be used to give them a visual cue somewhere where they will see it. That has helped me for some DJ's. I also use another one facing the crowd so that I can see it from anywhere in the room, although my ears usually hear it first, the red lights are just to confirm what my hearing is telling me. I don't always use a spare mixer, Sometimes I just walk up to the DCX unit facing the floor and turn down the input gains, works just as well and allows me to tweak on the fly too. Still very annoying though, wish I had a wireless solution.

Grant Bunter wrote: Other than standing over their shoulder with a big stick and an angry glare when they get into the red, I don't envy your position.

That is an old tried and true method ...

Grant Bunter wrote:Other than standing over their shoulder with a big stick and an angry glare when they get into the red, I don't envy your position.
Sadly, none of these will change the distortion that is introduced by the DJ themselves when running into the red...

Yes, that's the basic problem. I can control it while I stand there...but I can't stand there the whole time. As soon as I walk away the DJ pushed the levels, the limiter kicks in, and the result is an overly compressed mess.

The "problem" is that the compressed mess does sound louder, and the average sound level is higher. And that seems be the only thing that some DJs care about. Even the DJs who do seem to care are not able to trust the meters as the night wears on. They keep turning up the channel, then the channel gain, then the master until the board is full red...and at that point the limiter is cutting the output by 15+dB.

Set the booth monitors to hard clip 6 dB before the mains do. If it sounds like complete ass to them before FOH gets in the red, they'll have no incentive to push things further.

If it were my system, I'd DI the nastiest distortion effect I could find into the booth, and set it trigger at the first yellow light.

SoundInMotionDJ wrote:As soon as I walk away the DJ pushed the levels, the limiter kicks in, and the result is an overly compressed mess.

.

While the limiter becomes audible, just as nasty is the distortion that's coming from the mixer staying in the red. No matter what you do past the mixer, the distorted sound will just be a limited distorted sound.

I'd suggest talking to whoever is paying the DJs and tell 'em that you refuse to be a part of a crap-sounding show and why are they allowing it to continue? Bad sound ultimately will have an effect on their pocket. Maybe they can make it clear to the DJ to pull their head out. If the gig is too lucrative to lose, then I don't guess there is much you can do.

I don't have to have the income from my shows, so I refuse to put out crap - regardless of who wants it. It's my stuff, I'm in charge. There is a real power in being able to walk away if it isn't going the way you want. I understand that not everybody has that luxury, but sometimes that's what it takes to get their attention.

" I'd suggest talking to whoever is paying the DJs and tell 'em that you refuse to be a part of a crap-sounding show and why are they allowing it to continue? "

Yes, tell the DJ that the boss has a DB meter, anything over X amount of DB's means he loses the pay. Show him on the mixer, meter, lights, whatever, where that limit is. Let him or her work a night for free. That would be a quick learn.

Do DJ's need to get at the tone or channel strips? If not, set the level, lock the mixer in a ventilated box and let them just play the songs and work light scenes. Even if a couple songs did need EQ touches and cant now, the level is the killer, not the tone of a few songs out of say 50.

How many concerts have we heard that had an unbalanced mix or tone? The last time I saw Earth Wind and Fire was an outside event and the FOH mix crew were elevated 8 feet on a scaffold. Their ears were probably as much as 12 feet about the ground resulting in the band Earth, Wind and Kick Drum Only. I couldn't believe these morons didnt go ground level to check reality.

"Too loud" is probably the number 1 reason the bar scene is shot, next to drinking laws being enforced excessively.

I have no experience with brickwalls. I'm now presuming that they do not have the ability to absolutely hold the horses back from fools and ego idiots.

biodad wrote:"
I have no experience with brickwalls. I'm now presuming that they do not have the ability to absolutely hold the horses back from fools and ego idiots.

They do, they just sound bad doing it especially when hard hard into them.

Radian wrote:Set the booth monitors to hard clip 6 dB before the mains do. If it sounds like complete ass to them before FOH gets in the red, they'll have no incentive to push things further

Problem with that is they have their own separate monitor volume control on the DJ mixer.


Another thing is do you have enough monitor rig for the gig? Some DJ's need to feel what the crowd feels.

This is a setup we did (yes I know, combfiltering, split subs, yada, yada, rider demanded it so end of argument). It can hit 140 dB @ 50 hz at DJ position, never had a problem with anyone going red that night. Not even the guy in the photo who is the "instant red" guy I mentioned earlier.


For most EDM shows, we setup up the monitors as the main pa like above, then add some mid high fill for the crowd. Exact opposite of what you would do for a band.

Bruce Weldy wrote:While the limiter becomes audible, just as nasty is the distortion that's coming from the mixer staying in the red. No matter what you do past the mixer, the distorted sound will just be a limited distorted sound.

I agree. It sounds awful. But, even as the compression gets to obnoxious levels, the RMS sound level is higher. "Louder is better" don't you know.

Bruce Weldy wrote:I'd suggest talking to whoever is paying the DJs and tell 'em that you refuse to be a part of a crap-sounding show and why are they allowing it to continue? Bad sound ultimately will have an effect on their pocket.

If that were effective, I wouldn't be looking for an effects unit.

You should use a system limiter to avoid burning up your speakers, but yes, they do sound messy when you hit them. I use a Zero attack time on my system limiter and a 50:1 ratio, ( or as high as the ratio can go).
If you have the equipment, put a compressor in front of your system limiter.
I often use a 2:1 compressor on the output of a mixer, before the signal gets to my system controller / DSP crossover. I set the threshold or knee around 6 or 10 db down from where the system limiter kicks in. This gives an audible notification that you are reaching your limit without squashing too much of the content in the process. On the compressor I might use a 3-5 MS attack time to let some of the quick attack stuff go through, depending on the program material. If your guest DJ clips his outputs there's little you can do about them going into the red on their own stuff without them turning their rig down.

dswpro wrote:If you have the equipment, put a compressor in front of your system limiter.

I have a DEQ that feeds into the DCX. The limiter on the DCX is there to limit voltage for the speakers.

I do use a "soft knee" compression on the DEQ to help smooth out the onset of the compression. And that helps the compression to be "subtle" at first. When I'm there to set the channel gain to something reasonable for the wiiiiide range of DJ inputs I have to deal with, everything is reasonable.

Saddly, the "correct" solution of "only responsible adults" in the booth isn't something I can enforce.

It really doesn't matter what you do after it leaves the mixer if the mixer is in the red - it's gonna sound bad.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with this kinda' stuff.

If the mixer has inserts on the master out, you could insert a compressor with high ratio and slow release on the master out at the desired output. This could (depending on how the mixer is designed) prevent the clippage and (somewhat) maintain dynamic range. it would stop sounding wonky if they turn down.

If you get the opportunity, attenuate your input levels so your limiters are just engaging when the DJ mixer is clipping. If it sounds like crap, it's his problem / responsibility to lower his gain to an acceptable level.

If anyone complains, it's easy to point at his mixer buried in the red and say " Well, here's the problem." This way you can wash your hands of any responsibility for the crappy sound, and pin it on the DJ.

Unfortunately many DJs are dumb asses that think the AC wall socket can provide all the infinite power in the universe for their satisfaction. This is why a DJ will never get within 50 feet of my gear.