BillFitzmaurice.info

Our town is about to write a new noise ordinance. One of the local bar owners is going to make a presentation and I'm going to try and get him some pertinent info.

While I've read a bunch of stuff here and there on the forum about SPL meters and the various Weightings, I haven't really paid much attention as it wasn't something on my radar.

Now I need some help. Can anyone point me to some reference material that is short and sweet? And advice on what kind of weighting to use that would register the best outcome for our purposes - which is allowing as much noise as possible?

I have a fear that the city council will just grab a number and run with it. I'd like to have some facts and figures to back up a proper ordinance that won't kill the downtown bars.

The good news is that the police and council are pretty much behind making it better for the bars as the current standard is totally nebulous and not enforceable. There is one guy who is constantly calling the police and demanding that they write tickets if he can hear anything from his house. They way the current ordinance is written, they have to respond - they'd like to be able to tell him to pound sand.

So, anything ya'll can point me to as far as charts, etc. that compare relative loudness to SPL or dbs would be appreciated.

try to get it A weighted... and try and shoot for at least 100 feet from property line.

Bruce Weldy wrote:Our town is about to write a new noise ordinance. .

Sick of politicians jawing away are they?

This isn't specifically what you're asking for, but just another element of what the ordinance should address . .
Zoning. The specifications should be different depending on whether it's zoned residential, commercial, or industrial.

sine143 wrote:try to get it A weighted...

That would be a serious mistake. 'A' weighting doesn't measure bass, and bass is what carries. If they use an 'A' weighted standard there would still be problems, and complaints, and possibly a knee-jerk 'ban it all' reaction, because what's being heard isn't being measured.
Government standards are always 'A' weighted, because those standards are related to hearing damage, not audibility. Since most communities use government standards as the basis for local ordinances those ordinances tend to be as useless as the 'A' weighting that they use.

A reasonable standard is one where the noise heard from the bars is no more intrusive than that heard from other sources, including street traffic. A car passing in front of a house is about 70dB 'C' on the house porch. Since music is steady state you'd want that level to come in 10dB lower, or 60dB 'C' outside of the area homes. That's the basis for the standard that I wrote for a large venue near me. One would have to do a study to find out what the level inside each bar and/or on the street outside it would have to be to not exceed 60dB 'C' outside neighborhood houses.

There will always be assholes who don't want to hear anything, but any standard adopted would have to apply to all noise sources, not just bars, otherwise it would be unconstitutional based on being selectively enforced. That means also ticketing said passing cars, people mowing their lawns, kids playing outdoors, even barking dogs.

Harley wrote:

Bruce Weldy wrote:Our town is about to write a new noise ordinance. .

Sick of politicians jawing away are they?

Actually, the one complainer is Justice of the Peace.....a minor judge. He lives two streets behind the outdoor venue that I'm trying to help. The city (DA and police chief) is wanting to get something in writing so they can quit responding to him.

For once, they are trying to go the right way....I just want to make sure that they don't let their good intention set a standard that can't be met.

Hackomatic wrote:This isn't specifically what you're asking for, but just another element of what the ordinance should address . .
Zoning. The specifications should be different depending on whether it's zoned residential, commercial, or industrial.

This is being done mostly to address the downtown area and will be a designated number of blocks. Our downtown has been revitalized with a bunch of bars and has become a big part of the nightlife in town. Pretty much every one of them has live music.

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
A reasonable standard is one where the noise heard from the bars is no more intrusive than that heard from other sources, including street traffic. A car passing in front of a house is about 70dB 'C' on the house porch. Since music is steady state you'd want that level to come in 10dB lower, or 60dB 'C' outside of the area homes. That's the basis for the standard that I wrote for a large venue near me. One would have to do a study to find out what the level inside each bar and/or on the street outside it would have to be to not exceed 60dB 'C' outside neighborhood houses.

That's kinda' what I had planned - having examples of different audio events - traffic, mowers, etc.

That means also ticketing said passing cars, people mowing their lawns, kids playing outdoors, even barking dogs.

What I fear is that they will get bogged down in numbers and start to think linearly, but SPL is not linear. 70db is not half as loud as 140db. That's why I'm looking for some info on that curve - so as to show that perceived loudness falls off quickly as you move down the db scale. I've found a listing of various items with their SPL, but a chart showing that with a more exponential-looking curve might be a better visual aid to explain how it works. City councils have a habit of playing with numbers....not reality. I want to help them find some reality.

Bill, is the standard you wrote available as public record?

Bruce Weldy wrote: Bill, is the standard you wrote available as public record?

No, because it was specific for the venue. I had to do extensive testing to find out what levels the venue could be at to not exceed 60dbC in the surrounding residential neighborhoods. It turned out to be 105dBC at the FOH. That may seem low, but the FOH was 100 feet from the stage. It was further complicated because the venue is an outdoor pavilion, there's a roof, but no walls. Luckily the nearest residences were 1/2 mile away, and there were woods between the stage and the closest homes. Still, it was the bass that carried the furthest. The venue had previously paid $25k to another supposedly professional outfit, who came up with an A weighted standard, and sold the venue a $10k measuring system that would set off an alarm in the FOH if the level was exceeded. The alarm never went off, while the neighborhood complaints only increased, because the bass wasn't being measured.

The standard of 60dBC in the residential neighborhood you can take to the bank. That translates to no more than 50dbC inside the homes, which is no more than ambient. 60dBC is low enough that when I did off site testing I couldn't get a valid reading from the venue unless traffic was at least 300 feet away.

Thanks Bill, that gives me some ammo to work with.

G'day Bruce,

As you know, I've just started out as a Restaurant Manager.
The "proper" managers, a month back, asked me about how to deal with noise complaints (from the restaurant, who has entertainers daily), after two complaints. So I looked to see what I could find out.

Turns out the standard liquor license condition, at least in Queensland, is that the maximum noise level is 75db C weighted using "fast" mode, 3 metres or 10 feet from the source.
I intially took that as it should be measured that distance from the closed door, or building.

Bill raises some great points. There has to be a reference.
Invariably, that reference is background noise.
A lawn mower here is often thought to be 76-80dB. People can yell at 80dB.

Here's the hitch. When the Police turned up to investigate the 2 complaints, they had no meter at all. So it was totally qualitative. And that, by and large, is how most noise complaints are dealt with. Police officer says "It reads fine, but I think it's to loud". End of story, take a ticket, or shut down.

BUT lol.
I found the criteria for acoustical consultants under the act here. While it's a bit of a wade through, there's some excellent info contained in it IMO.
The most important essentially being, that the level from said offending music should be measured at the residence or position of the complainant as well!
This would include measurement of background noise (at both the complainants and the venue), and an assessment of the venue in a idle state, ie no air conditioners or refrigerators running blah blah blah, because it's not just the noise of the music, but the cumulative effect of music added to the background noise already emitted by the venue that becomes the issue.

Anyway, I'll stop blabbing on, here's the criteria:
http://www.olgr.qld.gov.au/__data/asset ... deline.pdf

Hope it's of some use....

Thanks Grant.

Hell, I can talk louder than 75db.


The funny thing about the guy that 99% of the complaints come from.....ready for this?........he lives right next to a train track....as in, 30 feet from his wall. And he's a full two blocks behind the venue.

Bruce Weldy wrote: The funny thing about the guy that 99% of the complaints come from.....ready for this?........he lives right next to a train track....as in, 30 feet from his wall. And he's a full two blocks behind the venue.

The asshole in chief complaining about the venue I worked for lived two miles away, and levels outside his house never reached 50dB. OTOH many of the nearby neighbors wanted it louder, so that they could listen to concerts from their backyards instead of buying tickets.

Bruce Weldy wrote: Pretty much every one of them has live music.

NICE!

Bruce Weldy wrote:

Hackomatic wrote:This isn't specifically what you're asking for, but just another element of what the ordinance should address . .
Zoning. The specifications should be different depending on whether it's zoned residential, commercial, or industrial.

This is being done mostly to address the downtown area and will be a designated number of blocks. Our downtown has been revitalized with a bunch of bars and has become a big part of the nightlife in town. Pretty much every one of them has live music.

This is a great thread, and I'm glad you brought it up as it has been quite enlightening. I just want to make sure my point was clear in that your venue is probably at the very least in the commercial zone and the ordinance should be written to account for higher sound levels than residential . . both ambient background AND the additional sound levels generated as a matter of conducting business.

I can see Pandora's box getting opened on something like this . . There are so many considerations and the rules will be written by folks who likely understand very little about the subject.