BillFitzmaurice.info

I have 4x DR250 and 4x T48 and WH10s incoming but I'm basically starting out from scratch as far as FOH mixing goes.

I've been out of the loop for awhile. Last time I looked SAC was in the "far too much money to even look at" category but computers have become cheaper of late. Can someone please give me an update on what a minimal but expandable SAC foh system would come in for these days? Say 16 input channels to start off?

What I got:
a itty bitty basic 2 aux 8 channel mixer, a two channel 31 band EQ, a nice vocal compressor, a couple of line level compressor/limiter channels, an Alesis multiverb for reverb, plus the processing in the XTI amps. It's fine for small gigs but not the big outdoor stuff the rig can punch out.

What I'm thinking is bide my time doing DJ type rentals with it until I can afford to invest in the whole SAC caboodle, rather than accumulate a whole bunch of analog gear. Any large band scenario I might land in the meantime, the band can rent the necessary stuff. My own band can play with e-drums and we're covered with a snake. From what I gather I wouldn't even need a snake for SAC if it was wireless.

I have a particular client in mind who needs a shedload more than 16 channels but would pay well. She puts on big multi vocal productions with full bands. Carts and horses, chickens and eggs and baskets, (wireless lapel microphones, leads!) I can't put more money into gear until it starts earning its own way.

Sound like a plan?

Renting an SAC system is asking for trouble... but to answer your question your looking at around 2k for a system.

I think you could get one together for less than 2K if you bargain hunted. The ADA8000's can be had in the $130 range and a machine can be built for around $400-500. Sound cards are out there too for pretty cheap. Read the forum - guys are doing it all the time. I just built a 32x32 for a little under 3K.

guitarkeys.com wrote:Renting an SAC system is asking for trouble... but to answer your question your looking at around 2k for a system.

I always go out with my SAC rig when it goes (with a few exceptions of users I have personally trained and installed SAC in their venue). If there is a preferred technician/mixer, I can operate the console, and let them "produce" their mix that way, and if they're interested I'll train them to operate the software and then just be on hand to help and answer questions. This system has worked well for me.

Another option is to build up a 24 or 32 channel fader surface with the Behringer fader packs... including a netbook to drive it this will cost about $1000. This way the on-screen action is limited to manipulating processing, not "mixing". This should suffice for many uses.

You wouldn't send an iLive or Venue rig out without a house engineer trained on the system... neither should you send SAC out unattended just because it's a fraction of the cost. It must be respected for the power it offers, and handled just like you would anything else with that much power.

Brent-

What interface is used between the netbk and the ADA's?

As always - thanks

Greg Plouvier wrote:Brent-

What interface is used between the netbk and the ADA's?

As always - thanks

The netbook is set up as a remote, so there is no direct interface to the ADAs other than Ethernet or WiFi to connect to the host. Running multiple fader packs on the host is probably not the best idea, although it has been done. This way, if your control surface goes down, it's an isolated failure and you can still mix from the host with no issues.

As far as connecting the BCFs (fader packs) to the netbook, you can use a USB midi interface. In fact, the BCF has one built in, then you string them together with MIDI cables. I've never actually set them up in that configuration, just a single fader pack, so I can't offer any advanced advice on that... there are some tricks to it. I think someone (Maybe George D) has posted a thread about how to get it all to work on the SAC forum.

Greg Plouvier wrote:I think you could get one together for less than 2K if you bargain hunted.

SAC forum is where it's at for this I guess. I got a cousin on contract in States for a few months who can send me "care packages" in reverse and I know a guy who can <help> put all the pieces together.

I have an old computer with a busted hard drive should be good for some parts like power supply and case.

Re wireless, I'm gathering, from that other thread of mine I hijacked, the FOH control can be done over a non internet wireless network to a laptop, unless the local area is full of wireless activity. The actual SAC is only running on the main machine backstage. Backup to that by cheap as chips cat5 cable, instead of fullblown snake. I knew what these personal network things were I'd be further ahead in my fact gathering.

BrentEvans wrote:The netbook is set up as a remote, so there is no direct interface to the ADAs other than Ethernet or WiFi to connect to the host

Oh - I read it as just ADA's with a netbk.

Gregory
A budget SAC system is possible. It is a trade off for setup and convenience but it can be done.
My recommendations to start:

1 desktop computer(doesn't have to be fancy Win XP preferred)
1-2 RME DIGI 9636 sound cards(Craigers or Fleabay $130-$200)
2-3 ADA 8000's($130-$230)
8 Optical cables($1-$10)
SAC software (Check website $500?)

Basic 16-32 channel system
Add a laptop for a remote FOH and you now know your budget.

FYI, I built my own computer and put it in a rack mount. I have my 3 amps, computer, 3 ADA's, and a monitor with keyboard in 1 single slant top rack. Easy setup and take down but it was not a budget build nor recommended for everyone.
Just my $0.02.

As for your BFD rig being compatible with SAC, the 2 systems are very complimentary. If not a match made in heaven.

Thanks for the recommendations Haysus.

Greg Plouvier wrote:

BrentEvans wrote:The netbook is set up as a remote, so there is no direct interface to the ADAs other than Ethernet or WiFi to connect to the host

Oh - I read it as just ADA's with a netbk.

This stuff is a bit over my head, I was the same way with most things audio BBFM. The SAC forum hasn't seen fit to make my registration active as yet. Can I string you guys along a bit more?

It seems you need reasonable amount of computer knowledge to set these systems up but I'm hoping I can learn to run one without needing to call on backup. Everyone waxes on about how stable SAC is or I wouldn't even be considering it. Standalone PC with no internet connection and one piece of software running it should be ok!

I'm guessing SAC steps up and knobbles most of XP so Microsoft takes a holiday from throwing spanners in your works?

Mics and DIs
ADA's
Soundcard(s) RME etc
Computer
Soundcard
Amps

Is that it? Or do the amps take up ADA channels on the way back?

Gregory East wrote:Mics and DIs
ADA's
Soundcard(s) RME etc
Computer
Soundcard
Amps

Is that it? Or do the amps take up ADA channels on the way back?

That's pretty much it with the exception of any processing you may want between ADA outs and amps and the fact that outputs come from the ADA's after the soundcard. I'm still using DBX eq's for mons and mains but you can do all the processing(including fx) within SAC if you so choose by means of plugins. I'll also be processing speakers outside of SAC next season - just my preference.

Ok, so with XTI's handling speaker EQ, crossover and limiting I only need left and right out of the ADAs, and as many monitor outs as necessary to come ouut of my input channel count. I need SAC to handle EQ room EQ.

Getting back to wireless FOH, someone mentioned Ethernet etc wireless not being "sequential" so no good for FOH SAC. I'm of the impression the FOH controls are merely a terminal for operating on SAC's actions, pretty much one at a time kind of operations. Actual SAC processing which would be going on in the main computer, so a little latency wouldn't matter?

Gregory East wrote:Ok, so with XTI's handling speaker EQ, crossover and limiting I only need left and right out of the ADAs, and as many monitor outs as necessary to come ouut of my input channel count. I need SAC to handle EQ room EQ.

Yes. That similar to my rig.
Just my opinion, I only run mono(1 out). Even running stereo out mains will allow you to have 6 more outs for monitors just for an 8 channel setup.
Most small clubs aren't large enough to accommodate stereo imaging especially live band setups. Recorded music may be different but not my thing.

Getting back to wireless FOH, someone mentioned Ethernet etc wireless not being "sequential" so no good for FOH SAC. I'm of the impression the FOH controls are merely a terminal for operating on SAC's actions, pretty much one at a time kind of operations. Actual SAC processing which would be going on in the main computer, so a little latency wouldn't matter?

A wireless router can be used to connect a number of remotes(laptop,netbook,tablet) to the Host computer.


The limitations of using remote FOH. Limited control of gain at preamp. The software has +20dB & -40dB of gain. If an input is clipping the preamp you must physically go to the stage to turn it down. Set it low to start and use the software to control gain.

Remotes control all aspects of the Host except except plug ins. Any changes to FX parameters need to be done at the host.
The exception to this is the native Delay and EQ plugins.

Gregory East wrote:Getting back to wireless FOH, someone mentioned Ethernet etc wireless not being "sequential" so no good for FOH SAC.

This comes up from time to time about audio via IP (ethernet, internet, network, whatever you want to call it). The SAC Remote protocol does not pass audio, only control, so it works fine.

Gregory....there IS a learning curve with SAC. It is not a "Plugin-and-Play " type of setup. Go with a Presonus Studio Live if you want more of that type of experience. However...the learning curve is worth it! I am having to mix a couple of shows on a bands StudioLive in a few weeks. It's a neat little board.....But I will MISS SAC!.

I love what my SAC system can do. I would not want to have to go back to an analog system again. Good luck with your decision