BillFitzmaurice.info

I thought this might be some fun. So, here's what we're going to role play. So, I am a young musician that has been given the task to buy a PA for my band. I open my Musicians Friend or Sweetwater catalog I get in the mail every 2 weeks and open to the speaker section. Except for the Verssaray's or the VRX arrays from JBL, all I see are regular old speaker cab's in every size, price and flavor. If horn loaded speakers are good, why aren't there of them in the catalog's?

I'm proposing this question because it was proposed to me today
Crash

Because they are a whole lot more expensive to build.....it's a bunch easier and more profitable to build a box with a hole in it.

Tell 'em to go look at EAW's website and see how much they get for their 12" loaded folded horns....if they didn't work, people wouldn't be paying that kind of money for 'em.

First ( before amplification ) ,there were horns, then tube amps were invented but they were limited in power.
Before high powered solid state amps were commercially available. it was necessary to get as much SPL per watt as possible. Horns were therefore very large.
Horns are efficient, but cannot be made very small.
When high powered amps became available, efficiency was traded for smaller cab size.
As stated there is more material and labor in a horn than a rectangular box.
And the MSRP is a lot more than the cost of labor and raw materials.

Syd

NCcrashman wrote: If horn loaded speakers are good, why aren't there of them in the catalog's?

The same reason a lot more people drive Toyotas than Bentleys.

check out he price of the pi sub

Or any of Danleys stuff! Void Acoustics as well! There's lots of horn loaded madness out there but due to the costs it's most likely not gonna make the Musicians Friend or Sweetwater lineup.

Ron K wrote:Or any of Danleys stuff! Void Acoustics as well! There's lots of horn loaded madness out there but due to the costs it's most likely not gonna make the Musicians Friend or Sweetwater lineup.

but you will see them being used in large venues with high priced sound engineers.

the labor cost to build them is really high. thats why DIY rules.

Killer replies. I told him several things, but the number one item I told him, was basically this. Horn loaded enclosures are amazingly efficient, sound great and very musical. That was his primary concern. Based on how efficient they really are, those power amp companies would go out of business not being able to sell high power amps. I can't remember if it was the VXR or the Peavey, but their dual 18" sub takes something ridiculous like 4800 watt's. Plus, they cost a ton of labor to manufacture and like Bruce said, how tough is it to cut a couple holes and glue speakers in them? We were looking at numbers like SPL chart's and he said it doesn't represent anything except how loud they can go. Not how nice they sound. That being said, he meant zero disrespect to Bill or his designs. He was just saying horn loaded box's in general. He is actually a pretty killer dude. He was asking legitimate questions looking for legitimate answers. He was implying that horns were popular in the 80's and not today. I took him to some websites and showed him some speaker array's that would be used in a stadium. Guess what? They were horns. He's a believer. Plus, when I'm done, I'll shut him up for good

Nice chat gang,
Patrick

Good job Patrick!

You could sum it up like this: Horn loaded loudspeakers are the bees knees!

Have you decided what to build yet?

NCcrashman wrote: He was implying that horns were popular in the 80's and not today

Set the clock back earlier.
http://www.gambleboards.com/jamtext.htm
( I heard the revised version of this ALL HORN system later that same summer 1974, at "The World Series of Rock" in Cleveland )

Syd

105db at one mile - genius
its a good read but some bits i wasnt expecting, for example

"A lot of people say if you don't have a horn you can't get the
bass out there. Well, that's not true. We even found
that the horns we did use contributed very little to
the bass level."

i thought this thread was meant to backing up horns???

anyway, the way i always see horns is like a trumpet and direct radiators like the mouth peice. we all know which is louder and sounds better...

i thought this thread was meant to backing up horns???

Put things in objective context...
Remember this was 1974 and already the bulk of smaller concerts were already being driven by walls of sound.
It was found after the CJ that the system was not big enough and for Cleveland more cabs were added.
I and over 80,000 others found the bass content more than adequate, and what that horn system produced could not have been accomplished with direct radiator.

Syd

Sydney wrote:

i thought this thread was meant to backing up horns???

Put things in objective context...
Remember this was 1974 and already the bulk of smaller concerts were already being driven by walls of sound.
It was found after the CJ that the system was not big enough and for Cleveland more cabs were added.
I and over 80,000 others found the bass content more than adequate, and what that horn system produced could not have been accomplished with direct radiator.

Syd

cool, i was just a little confused at that line cause from my experience horns have

man... i wish i was around at that time to experience stuff like that!

i wish i was around at that time to experience stuff like that!

Ah, But at no time in the past, was there access and dissemination of information, so readily available as today with the internet. It has brought science and research to anyone with a connection.
The concept of T/S parameters was developed years before they became common place and obligatory for all drivers as today. There were not as many vendors of drivers either, no web commerce. I got my first drivers at Layfette stores, McGee Radio in KC city, and from the "surplus box" of the electronics company my father worked for.
Pre T/S speaker cab design was based upon tables guidelines and WOM - No PC sims.
A lot of cutting edge work is often only exchanged among engineers, less so today but there is a lot I would still like to study and share, but it is either copyrighted or expensive.
Analysis is greater today, and the bar got raised, so I'd like to believe everyone's level of understanding has improved.

Syd

We were looking at numbers like SPL chart's and he said it doesn't represent anything except how loud they can go. Not how nice they sound.

You can also let them know that those charts very much give you an idea on how they sound.