BillFitzmaurice.info

Besides explosions in movies and deep bass, can you really hear anything below 30hz?

I ask this question because I've been curious about the T-60 and THT used for DrumNBass and Dubstep. Really bass heavy music. I've used the T-48's and they worked awesome, I wonder if I traded and used the latter? How much more bass would I get down low? Is it worth the build?

neverendingbeatz wrote:Besides explosions in movies and deep bass, can you really hear anything below 30hz?

Sure you can. What I've gleaned, from my personal forays near infra sound though, is that 30Hz appears to be the start of some region where sound transitions from an auditory (and therefore musical) experience to a tactile experience. I know I love it when the AT throttles the crap out of my car on the low stuff.

The only thing that came even remotely close to resembling music that low, for me, was toying around with kettle drums in middle school and the huge gong at Doi Suthep in Thailand. Familiar with contrabass instruments? It just seems to me that if an instrument isn't percussion-related, but plays that low, it doesn't sound right. I tried listening to a sousaphone solo one time....drudgery. The sax solo below ain't too bad I guess. Just my perspective.

neverendingbeatz wrote:Is it worth the build?

Dunno.

And even then, most of the stuff from that instrument was mostly the harmonics. Although it the fundamental does dip to 30hz

But I totally agree with that. Below 30hz and is more a vibration that you can feel rather than actually hear. I think the transition starts around 35hz. And up to now, even the most demanding of my songs I have run through the RTA do not have content below 32hz. But since you're on a totally different requirement due to the music you play I really don't know how low you need to go. Try this. Eq your t48 flat down to around 32hz and just give it minimal power (i'm talking 1-5 watts) and just listen for yourself is you need that extension. If you do, then just keep building t48 until you get the desired output down low, or if you do feel like you need more extension, then a whole new cab would be your ticket.

I'm guessing this would be a perfect excuse for you to build the THT. You could build it and use for for your HT while at the same time serving the purpose of giving you all the extension you need for determining just how much extension you are willing to get from your live system.

But if a new user came to the forums and asked what he should build for his bass-heavy material, I would not hesitate to recommend the t30 because I think that anything lower than 30hz and you have to make too many compromises and not to mention that with that extension, most live acts will not be able to touch you, and even a lot of clubs will envy your system. I would take the hump on the low end of the t30 over the even bigger hump at 60hz of the t48. I think that I would just have to EQ down just like I do my t39's anyway, and going wider on the t48 doesn't really help out below 40hz.

But then again, you're not a newbie, so say to build the THT and let it rip!

WiSounds wrote:

SeisTres wrote:I think that anything lower than 30hz and you have to make too many compromises

What kind of compromises?

Size and output. A bigger cab and/or less output.

WiSounds wrote:

SeisTres wrote:I think that anything lower than 30hz and you have to make too many compromises

What kind of compromises?

The same compromises I had to consider when I choose to build the t39's over all the other designs offered. size, output, extension.

I've been reading a lot of stuff that the lowest that most people can actually discern is around 25Hz.

Kind of like the most framerate, colors, tastes, smells, etc... it's different from person to person.

Radian wrote: The sax solo below ain't too bad I guess. Just my perspective.

Wow! As a poor soul that was forced to play a baritone sax in high school marching band (with wool uniforms) I feel sorry for the person that has to lug that thing around!!!

Randy Emerick must have a third lung to play that thing, the air required to hit those lows makes me light headed just thinking about it!

I'll kick in that my T48's today showed a notable need for a bit more extension than I was allowing out of them. I ran sound for a hip-hop event in a single court basketball gymnasium and the DJ was spinning some Trance for a portion of the evening.

I HP my T48's at 40Hz with a L/R 48db/octave slope to keep the pair safer at high volumes. The bass output was palpable, halfway through the evening I commented to several people that my chest was hurting and jokingly described the evening as having massaged my insides. There were several tracks where the electronic bass line progressed lower and, on the bottom note or two, practically disappeared. I'd like to try it again with the cut down at 35Hz, but then I think I may need to have all 4 of my T48's. The two I brought were working hard enough already to fill the gym and the last thing I want to do right now is kill a driver. 5db difference in output was enough to take things from "noticeable bass in the room" to "significantly felt bass in the room". That 5db boost at 35Hz would be a significant increase in power requirements, especially as the T48 drops off there.

Trance is definitely a lot more kicky, than bassline intensive. I'm surprised you found need for more juice below 35.

sine143 wrote:Trance is definitely a lot more kicky, than bassline intensive. I'm surprised you found need for more juice below 35.

We played all kinds of stuff. Had some trance, house, hip-hop. It wasn't a regular occurence through the set and it was on one song in particular, but it was very noticable to me when the last note in a line practically wasn't there.

Dubstep and other synthesized music has quite a bit of sub-30hz content at times.

hypez604 wrote:Dubstep and other synthesized music has quite a bit of sub-30hz content at times.

I don't want to start another debate on the subject here, so let me put it like this:
The jury is still out on whether the sub 25hz content in dubstep and other bleeding-edge electronic music is actually part of the musical content, or just artifacts of the new era of basement producers and DIY mastering studios. In the same way bass notes produce higher harmonics they also produce lower harmonics, and especially when using software synths and digital recording and tracking it's very easy for an inexperienced producer to have these harmonics in a track without ever noticing, since they cannot be reproduced on more than 0.1% of all sound systems in existence.

For myself, I have heard a few (a very select few, aside from "bass reference" tracks like "I love bass" and Techmaster P.E.B. and the like, but I highly doubt I'll ever hear any of those tracks played by DJs around here. They're more for sound system geeks than musicians.) tracks that have intentional content down that low. When doing dubstep shows I (and others) can readily tell the difference between my system ran down to 30hz, and my competitors, who seem to drop off around 45hz. But after quite a bit of low-level testing to keep my subs from self-destructing, I really can't tell that much of a difference between a HPF of 30hz and 20hz, and it's my semi-professional opinion that anything below 25hz should be left to the realm of home theater and experimental art installations. 30hz and up still supplies PLENTY of that sought-after "visceral" feel to the music.

Again, not trying to dredge up this tired old debate again, and this is just my not-so-humble opinion - feel free to agree to disagree.

WiSounds wrote:0-20 Just forget it

20-25 Not really that critical other than for crazy obsessed whackadoos like me

25-35 Critical to primarily DnB and Dubstep, but still important to most electronic genres

35-45 Everybody needs this, most just don't know it

45+ Rhetorical

this seems to sum it up nicely.....


jcmbowman i do not agree with your opinion(instead of calling it wrong) that lower hz's are art or movie content areas. there is a lot of sub harmonic info to many instruments that are skillfully recorded and made sure to be included to many fine recordings.
when i listen to my upright bass amped without a subwoofer there is something missing.

in addition to that, the "subharmonic" dbx generators that came out many years ago are being used to even lower the content of normal bass instruments and electronic music. whether heard or felt, it is part of the experience of music that people are looking for. excluding it is selling them short.

another note is that to our old ears it might not be able to be heard, but to the young and still fresh ears of the younger generation, they are expecting it. give it to them and give it to them "LOUD" i say.

Sounds like a lot of good information, thanks to everyone who responded. Before I got into this website, I use to run an all JBL SRX system with the double 18's and double 12's setup. Before that, I did that car sound competition for sound quality, not SPL. I never had the need for an RTA, just did everything through ear. I built my Titan 48's 30 inch wide internally, does anyone have a chart of that? So far, dubstep and dnb sound really good, when the bass dives deep, everything starts shaking. So that is why I was asking about 30hz. Can I use some old bass mechanic CD's with the different bass cycles to test the titans?

you can pretty much put anything you want through your cabs. However, you have to have them hipassed/lopassed as per the plans, to avoid damaging the drivers.


there are no graphs of the 30 inch wide, but I'm sure you can draw some conclusions from those 2.