BillFitzmaurice.info

Levi, where are you located?

@Seth

Oh man, here we go!!!

Yes! Hahaha! We will always chase that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! We will definitely make sure to do as close of a simulation to the real deal as possible. It’s even more important in this case, seeing how remote the event is. Every little thing matters! So crank up the OCD!!!

We will also have plenty of time to set up at the event. Many days, actually. No rush there. As long as we don’t forget/lose any material things along the way, we should be good. (Shit, I probably just jinxed it!)

Good point on our microphone spying idea! Most folks are really cool and down to earth out there. We just need to catch them at the right time… Easier said than done!

That orange trace looks very VERY promising! If memory serves, we tried to get something close to that, given the conditions. But going forward, we will definitely have orange on our minds!

Dave Rat, the wizard! Thanks for the video! I’m not sure whether his straight line array had the optimal delays, like in Figure 15, but that is very enlightening! I mean, that’s a huge drop off in the low end versus an array with no delay! Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that you can definitely widen the coverage area with delays, but it comes at quite the cost!

Our primary coverage area, which will be the case 80%+ of the time, is actually a narrow and long slot. Let’s say 80-100’ wide x 200-250’ long, with a sweet spot best placed probably around 50-70’ out. (Maybe, we are still toying with that.) That seems to fit well with the non-delayed line array that Dave models in the video.

Thanks for mapping out the Midas! When we get to that chapter, this will be worth its weight in gold!

And thanks for bringing us back to the start! Yes, we want optimal sound quality first! Funny how complex that can get, though! We will probably have to learn Dave’s method and play around with scenarios that will best fit our specific situation. And even then, we’ll need to be ready for any curveballs!

About Soundvision, though... Am I correct in saying that we can’t fully simulate Bill’s designs? Due to the fact that the specific Fitzmaurice speaker profiles are not available?

Overall, it feels like we are on the right path, though, and with plenty of time (relatively speaking)! And that, my man, is the best position we’ve ever been in regarding our sound system!

Man, those AD-430s look pretty slick! Makes me a little nervous that their entire operation is in China. Would be tough to troubleshoot over the phone and with the time difference. But if they are as solid as our Crowns, that would be an unbelievable deal! They might be worth a trial at the shop when we get enough subs built and can test them out.

Is there any chance you can keep me in the loop with your experiences with the Admark? And the Sound Town amp as well? I’m on the edge of my seat!!!

Oh, and we are in Montana!

Levi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:18 pm We will also have plenty of time to set up at the event. Many days, actually. No rush there. As long as we don’t forget/lose any material things along the way, we should be good. (Shit, I probably just jinxed it!)

You soooooo did. Crap. Oh well. Mayhem and madness... again.

Thanks for mapping out the Midas! When we get to that chapter, this will be worth its weight in gold!

Yeah, no worries. It was a fun little brain teaser, figuring out how to get so many delay's.

I've been eyeballing that Midas Ultranet interface for a while now. I have a similar interface from Clark Teknik (DM8008), but it's primarily designed for installs which means it uses Phoenix connectors instead of XLR, has only 8 channels, and cost (IIRC) about $500. I have that one set up to run four stereo wireless IEM transmitters and I've wanted another to put in my amp rack but didn't want to spend that much for only 8 channels again. The Midas equivalent costs less, has 16 channel outputs, and they're all XLR. Not a bad deal if you consider the cost is only slightly more than a quality 50 foot 16 channel XLR snake... And if you ever needed, it can be made waaaaay longer than 50 feet for the cost of Shielded Cat5e. I went ahead and ordered one. I have some other shit going on in life right now, so I
probably won't get to it soon. But, at some point, I will double check and make sure the signal routing I outlined functions as intended with the delays.

About Soundvision, though... Am I correct in saying that we can’t fully simulate Bill’s designs? Due to the fact that the specific Fitzmaurice speaker profiles are not available?

All the free predictive software deals seem to be somewhat brand specific. There's another one I see used a lot on YouTube videos by Meyer Sound, MAPP XT

It is possible that they allow you to enter your own parameters. I'm not really sure, one way or the other.

Short of that, to get the best comparable result with their preloaded cabs, choose one of their cabinets that has similar frontal dimensions to the mouth dimensions of the T60. A 1x18 ported cab would probably have about the closest radiation pattern to that of a 20" wide T60. The shape of the coverage will be similar, the intensity may or may not. I'm not sure whether those programs take into account the actual response of the cab or not. I would think not, because it all gets EQ'd to target response anyway. But, truly honestly, I don't know. The focus is really pattern control and getting coverage as even throughout the listening space across the entire usable frequency range.

I haven't had enough inspiration to dive in and figure any of the software options out. But, if and when your deal starts turning into a real thing that's gonna happen... that might be enough to push me over the edge. It would be fun to collaborate on something like that.

Overall, it feels like we are on the right path, though, and with plenty of time (relatively speaking)! And that, my man, is the best position we’ve ever been in regarding our sound system!

Don't blink. With a project of this magnitude, 150 days will go by in a flash. Better start making saw dust soon!

Man, those AD-430s look pretty slick! Makes me a little nervous that their entire operation is in China. Would be tough to troubleshoot over the phone and with the time difference. But if they are as solid as our Crowns, that would be an unbelievable deal! They might be worth a trial at the shop when we get enough subs built and can test them out.

IF the AD-430 puts out what they claim it puts out, one amp would essentially be enough to run all 32 cabs to within a quarter dB of their limit. I've got my fingers crossed, but I'm not holding my breath. We'll see what it does. But, if they are relatively accurate specs, the lower powered Admark K420 would probably suite your intended setup and conditions adequately and save you $1600 on four of them. Enough to buy a backup/spare and still have change left over.

Is there any chance you can keep me in the loop with your experiences with the Admark? And the Sound Town amp as well? I’m on the edge of my seat!!!

I will 100% post my results on the forum here. Probably in it's own thread though. I'm going to send you a PM with my contact info. If you don't use WhatsApp, we can certainly text/call directly instead. But, yeah. I don't mind keeping you in the loop.

Oh, and we are in Montana!

Grumble grumble. I'm out in CA. Was hoping we'd be closer. I wouldn't mind getting a little hands-on experience with a system of this size. Test running configurations and tuning would be a blast! (no pun intended)

Out of curiosity, why do you have two Driverack PA2's and why did you guys opt to do the processing in the M32 instead? It's a curious puzzle in my mind. One might say say I'm puzzled. The only reason I can think of is, you wanted to run subs on aux, but a but a single Driverack PA2 wont support that setup, hence the second PA2. But, now you're juggling settings in two DSP's which I imagine could get quite cumbersome going back and fourth. Then realizing you can get similar functionality right inside the M32 with way less stress and headache, that became your final tuning solution. But, subs on aux is more of a live music tool, used to eliminate unintentional low end rumble from mics, instruments, and the environment from ever being amplified and sent to the subs. Great tool for live performances. Maybe someone just wanted the option to adjust the bass volume on the fly? Subs on aux would allow that functionality and also supports my Sherlock Holmes-esque breakdown of events.

Am I at all close? (probably not, but had fun theorizing)

Side note: It would be nice if the PA2 allowed one of the inputs to be routed to the subs independent of the other input routed to the mids and highs for a mono system. Just isn't though. The Driverack VENU360 has 3 inputs and will allow subs on aux configuration, where the PA2 unfortunately won't.

Oh! I also wanted to add that you can use inexpensive CDX grade sheathing plywood to cut a considerable amount of cost (and weight) from the project. It just has to be at least 5 equal thickness plies, as per the plans. It's not as nice to work with as Baltic Birch. It can get a bit warpy, take a bit of persuasion to get flat and true, and has lot's of knots and voids to fill (if you want it to look nice). Up to you if the money saved is worth the bit of extra time and effort. Last time I used it for a build, it was something like $20 for a 4x8 sheet. Don't quote me, but I think the current cost may be up in the $30-40 range now. Although, you may be able to get a considerable discount, considering you will likely need a whole pallet of the stuff.

I suppose you could always do hybrid builds too. Baltic Birch on outer panels to save time getting a quality outer appearance and use the budget lumber for inner panels to minimize weight and cash outlay.

Was thinking... I know you mentioned some of the cabs may have been damaged in transport by ratchet straps. But, it might be wise for us to also discuss the construction materials and techniques used to build the last round of cabs in order to identify possible areas of improvement to avoid future issues.

Did you build them personally?
What type of plywood did you use? Number of plies? Any chance you have a pic of the plies?
Was PL Premium adhesive used throughout? If not, what was used and where?
Did you use clamps, screws, and/or brads with every panel?

If it all checks out, they should last quite a while and be able to put up with the same level of bumps, scratches, and impacts any commercially available cab would withstand.

@Seth

Yes! It will be great to see a Midas vs Clark showdown!

MAPP XT looks pretty slick! Whatever program we can use, mapping out the ideal scenario for this system seems like a must! In fact, this is actually a high priority for us right now. Once we get our ideal sound setup figured, then we can let the rest of the build team start working on everything else. They are chomping at the bit!

Oh, and don’t worry, this is going to happen! It looks like we will start putting in order for plywood and drivers this week! Or next week at the latest. So get inspired!

Man, these Admark amps seem too good to be true! It will be VERY interesting to compare and contrast amps when we have the cabs built!

Grumble grumble… You might just have to check it out at the Burn one of these years!

It’s elementary, my dear Seth! But only when you look at this puzzle from an historical perspective. Basically, we have slowly evolved over the years. Different people, different equipment. This last year was the first year for one of our new crew members, and he is the one who had the Midas. He brought it along with some of his other equipment just in case, and ended up using it. Boom, mystery solved! Oh, and we just have the one Driverack.

The VENU360 looks great! It might be a good option to be able to adjust the subs on the fly. We want that bass, but maybe we won’t want it all the time.

Wow, CDX does sound like a bargain! But I think it might not be worth the extra hassle... How much is 5x5 9 ply grade BB Baltic Birch around your neck of the woods? I have been quoted $1.85/sqft for unit pricing. Which is way better than I thought it would be. That’s probably a little over twice as much as CDX with a bulk discount, though.

That said, it seems like it’s worth it to just do all the cabs in birch. Dealing with warps and voids and such, times 32 cabs, doesn’t sound too appetizing at this point. And Baltic sounds like it is more durable than pine, which is good if these are going to be dance platforms. Oh, and we are used to dealing with the LAB15 cabs, so the single LAB12 cabs will feel light as a feather in comparison!

…Maybe…



Weight Time!

Thanks for bringing up the weight question! This is the first time that I actually started searching for plywood weight, and then thinking to add up the weight of the cabs from that angle.

The number I found for 12mm 9 ply birch is 43 pounds per 5x5 sheet. The 20” wide tubas would take about 3 sheets, so 129 pounds there. (The actual number is probably less, but let’s call it roughly even if we throw in all the miscellaneous hardware.) Plus 22 pounds for the LAB12. So that’s about 150 pounds per cab.

150 pounds is an interesting number, since I had 120 pounds per cab in my head for some reason.

Running similar numbers, that would mean the LAB15 tubas we had were more like 195-200 pounds than the 185 pounds I had first thought.

So, I guess the point is that all these cabs are heavier than I originally thought. And that’s without a coating like Duratex if we go that route. Which is maybe another 10 pounds (1 gallon) per cab with a double coat.

Anyway, the 1x12 cab weighs about 45-50 pounds less than the 1x15 cab if we use birch. Which is great! But what about the other options?

CDX seems to be about 30% lighter. So the 150 pounds would drop to 105 pounds, if we make them all CDX.

Alright, so if they are all made out of of one type of plywood, birch is 150, and CDX is 105 pounds. But what if we mix and match, like you suggested?

If we wanted to use Baltic on the exterior panels for the added durability, and something cheaper/lighter for the interior, I wonder what the cost and weight savings would be?

For the 20” 1x12 version, I estimate about two 5x5 sheets for the exterior panels. And one 5x5 for the interior panels.

Our basis for comparison will be the full birch cab. Again, about 150 pounds. And it would be $138 in plywood given the local price.

2 Baltic sheets cost $46 x 2 = $92. 2 Baltic sheets weigh 43 x 2 = 86 pounds.

1 CDX sheet costs $23, and weighs about 30 pounds. Versus a baltic sheet, that saves $23 and 13 pounds per cab, with each cab costing $115 and weighing 137 pounds. So that would be $23 x 32 = $736 and 13 x 32 = 416 pounds savings overall.

Hmmmm…



Big side note.

This also led me to dig into plywood ratings for the very first time. I’m putting this here just in case anyone is a dummy like me and curious. Generally speaking…

A is the best, void-free and sanded.

B is next, with any voids filled and sanded.

Then C, with smaller voids (unpatched knot holes) and not sanded.

Then D, with larger voids and not sanded.

Also, if there is an X on the end, that means the glue holding the plys together (not the wood itself) can be exposed to moisture for a short time. Depending on the market, and if Duratex or a similar protective coating is used, then X grade glue may or may not be worth it for a project like this.

Again, it seems like the extra hassle working with anything below B grade is a big deal in a project of this size. That’s a lot of time and energy to spend filling voids, and then waiting for the filler to cure. Especially since we’d probably want to fill voids on interior surfaces as well, which I’m guessing would be a good thing to minimize any rough edges for air to catch on? I have no idea, though. Would an audience member be able to hear the difference between void and void-free? Again, no idea. My guess is a slightly hesitant yes, because Bill specifically calls for void-free plywood in the plans.

That said, comparing baltic BB to pine CDX, it seems like the extra $23 per cab ($736 overall) is worth paying, and the extra 13 pounds per cab is worth hauling…

But then again, Bill also mentions using ACX in the plans. So maybe it’s okay to have some voids on the interior sides… Round and round we go!

We probably don’t need to bother with an X rating if we use Duratex. But maybe an X rating would be worth it if we end up just staining the cabs again… I don’t know…

I know in post # 43, Tom says we won’t need to worry about Duratex in the shipping container once it cures. But I am so nervous! Finding out that Duratex might stick to itself after a year in that thing would be a huge bummer. Especially since we are probably talking ½-1 gallon per cab! So potentially $3,000 ish in Duratex alone!

But if commercial speakers can be kept in the container without any sticking issues, then would that be the final word. Is Duratex similar to what the commercial guys use? Or do they use something else with a higher tolerance?

I couldn’t find anything about the temperature rating on cured Duratex. I only saw this: ”Do not exceed temperatures of 150°F for drying.”

https://www.acrytech.com/product/speake ... ler-grade/

I will call them this week. Hopefully they will know!



Cab Construction

I did not personally build the old ones. (I will be building these new ones, though!) Two different carpenters in our group did, in two different locations.

I am almost positive that the carpenter in Montana used the same 9 ply BB grade baltic birch plywood. That’s what they stock around here, anyway. I’ll definitely take some photos next time I get to the shop.

I am pretty sure he used the PL adhesive, but I will reach out to him and ask. It’s been many years, so I hope he can remember!

I believe he used brads and clamps. No screws. I say this because I think he was under the gun, and the extra time to use screws probably didn’t happen.

We were discussing using biscuits this time around to really make things more solid.

Also, we would definitely appreciate any methods or techniques that might not be in the plans! Or anything that is in the plans, that is absolutely crucial to know, needs a little extra explaining, etc.

To cure Duratex leave the cabs in the summer sun for a day or two. Plastic corners on the cabs will keep them from sticking to each other.

To help out with drawing the panel lines on aaalllll the sides, may I suggest drawing out the panel lines/positions on a piece of 1/4" hardboard, cutting out slots where the corners of each individual panel meets the next (but leaving tabs in places to hold the hardboard together). Then, use that as a template for drawing out the panels in all the sides.
I hope that this makes sense.

@Bill

Thanks for the advice!

For what it's worth, I called Duratex. I explained the situation, and the rep instantly understood. She said the stacking/sticking issue has a name. "Blocking". She said it was actually a pretty big problem, so in 2019, they changed the formula to help address it. Since then, she hasn't heard of anyone having issues. But she also said that storage in a shipping container in Nevada is a more extreme situation than what they were planning for, so she was unsure how it would fare. However, she asked for the size and weight of the cabs, and what color we would use for a coating, and said that she'd have their lab do a test to see!

Wow!!! I don't know if I've ever had customer service like that before!!!


@Tom

Making a template is a great idea!

And yes, I believe I understand. You can't cut out the entire trace, because then you'd just have a big hole. But it you get all the corners cut out, then you can just connect the dots when you remove the template.

Piece of cake! Thanks!!!

DuraTex is no johnny-come-lately. I started using it after seeing it was used by Carvin on their pro-sound cabinets, which must have been 20 odd years ago. AFAIK I was the first to recommend it for the DIY community, it's since become a go-to source.

If you put the Plastic Chevron corners on the cabs, they will never touch and never stick. Plus, when you stack 'em, they won't slide around. They lock in.......couldn't imagine not having 'em on my cabs.

https://www.penn-elcom.com/us/large-pla ... adius-1405

Levi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:09 pm You might just have to check it out at the Burn one of these years!

You've inspired me. Looking into what it would take for me to attend this year. I wanna see and experience this system! (along with everything else there)

The VENU360 looks great! It might be a good option to be able to adjust the subs on the fly. We want that bass, but maybe we won’t want it all the time.

Running subs on aux isn't a horrible idea. But, if you're not running live music, it's primary function is moot. Being able to adjust the sub to main balance isn't technically a "good idea", but it won't kill anything except for a technically perfect tune. Changing the sub output, independent of the mains moves the effective crossover point and screws with the phase alignment a little. Neither will be a show stopper, it's just a bit of a shame to take all the time to get it all perfect, then essentially disregard the epic tune on a whim of the moment. I'd much rather you make adjustments to the EQ. But again, it's not the end of the world to adjust sub level with subs on aux. In your case, I would not go out of my way to get a Driverack VENU360 just for that function. Complete waste of time, money, and unnecessary added system complexity.

Wow, CDX does sound like a bargain! But I think it might not be worth the extra hassle.

Completely up to you. Douglas Fir CDX isn't usually all too difficult to work with.

The cut optimization program I use (MaxCut) indicates it would take 68 5x5 sheets and 26 4x8 sheets if panels 8,10,12, and the sides were done in 5x5 Baltic Birch and the rest in 4x8 CDX. If you did all 32 cabs out of 5x5 BB it would take 98 sheets, and if you did the cabs entirely out of 4x8 CDX it would take 96 sheets. If we assume a 5x5 cost is $60 and the 4x8 is $30, ply cost for the hybrid would be $4860. $5880 if done completely in BB or $2880 if done out of CDX.

It's unusual to find CD (without the x), presumably because that grade of ply is most often used in sheathing the exterior of houses.

Especially since we are probably talking ½-1 gallon per cab! So potentially $3,000 ish in Duratex alone!

Based on 6 solid sides (no mouth) a 60 x 30 x 20 box has an outter surface area of 37.5 SqFt. One gallon of DuraTex will cover 200 Sqft, or 100SqFt in a two-coat application. I would expect to get about 3 cabs per gallon and I wouldn't doubt you'd be able to get all 32 done with two 5gal buckets, $865.
Edited to add, I made a mistake! Correction: 60 x 30 x 20 is 50 SqFt... 2 cabs per gallon. Three 5 gallon buckets should get you there, $1300.

Cab Construction... ...I believe he used brads and clamps. No screws. I say this because I think he was under the gun, and the extra time to use screws probably didn’t happen.

We were discussing using biscuits this time around to really make things more solid.

Brads are just fine and I'd way rather use them. It does speed things up quite a bit. I'd just recommend the panels be held tightly in place with clamps (or one screw on each end where clamps can't get to) prior to shooting the brads in for the strongest possible glued joint. I don't think the addition of biscuits would help much, if at all. Those thin little wafers aren't going to stand a chance against overly tight ratchet straps and/or shifting cargo any more than standard construction techniques would. If you do use them, I'd just use them on the outer panels. In the end, it wouldn't hurt anything, just take a little extra time and attention. Honestly, if I wanted to increase the sheer strength of any of the joints, I'd probably just run a screw in. Quicker and easier. In fine cabinetry you wouldn't want to be able to see the filler over the screw head and biscuits would be invisible. But, this is getting texture painted and you'll never see it. It's been said, you can hide a multitude of sins with DuraTex, and I agree. I still use filler and sand though.

I also like the idea of using the plastic corners everyone is talking about. However, if you do und up setting them up flat so people can dance on them, the plastic corners could be a slight trip hazard.

Also, food for thought... if you paint the inside of the horn white, they show quite nicely if you want to light them up.

I made a mistake above! Correction: 60 x 30 x 20 is 50 SqFt... 2 cabs per gallon. Assuming DuraTex is not used in the mouth, three 5 gallon buckets should get you there (14.66 gallons to be exact), $1300.

Found a deal
Admark K410 at VIP Audio
3 or more brings the price down to $850 per, shipping included!



The K410 should easily cover your needs

Admark K410 manufacturers webpage


I may be able to get some testing on the AD-430 and the Sound Town ST-UPDM4C in a couple weeks. Also, the Midas output interface came in so I'll try to test that setup at the same time.

I can't help with the sound design but for that container storage issue you should look into adding some passive cooling to the container.
No affiliation with these guys but the product looks good for the purpose.

https://youtu.be/Jwupd26e4dk?si=ujyFN_DtvBQrSK-X

Much cheaper version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRgWPhcXXjk

Hi all!

Sorry for the delay. We’ve been gearing up on all fronts! Crossing eyes, dotting tees, etc.


@Seth

If you are serious about going, send me a message! Pretty much everything about the Burn is a pain to navigate. It’s a kind of lottery to get a ticket (the main sale was today actually!), and attending the event is quite the process compared to the typical festival.

Okay sounds good on the VENU360. Horses held!

I just completed the cut list on Cut List Optimizer today. After I added all the braces (the 20” will need 2 rows), it says I need about 108 sheets of 5x5. Unit pricing on baltic has actually dropped in the past month to about $40 each around here, so we are going to go all birch!

Man, the Duratex folks are just fantastic! I told them we really like the natural look of stain. They then went and took a scrap birch panel and applied their Ultra Deep Tint Base to it. No color added. They say it’s milky in the can, but dries clear. They sent a photo, and it looks great! Finally, a durable clear coat that is easy to apply! And we can probably get more coverage if we properly stain everything with pretreat and all that with water based stuff. Less pores to absorb the Duratex is the thought there. So fingers crossed we can get away with something crazy like 10 gallons or something like that. Maybe less!

Noted on the clamps and screws. And good call, we’ll skip the biscuits. Especially since the 20” version will have two rows of braces, these cabs will probably be rock solid. And, I doubt anyone would notice wood filler if we end up staining. Or maybe they would, and biscuits would make sense. (Circles and circles, see what I did there?) Seems like that might not be worth the extra hassle, though.

We are leaning heavily in the direction of no corners. One less step. And I agree, it makes the cabs a little less trip hazard-y. We are also going to extend the top panel, number 8 I believe, all the way to the front/mouth, so there is not a hole for twisting ankles. Also, the Duratex folks are still working on the 140F heat testing, but my guess is there will not be a blocking issue. Worst case, maybe we just put a few 2x4 shims to limit the contact area. They also recommended a reflective paint for the shipping container, so we might go that route if we can get a proper color and we have the budget for it. There are rules about the color it can be, though. It has to somewhat blend in with the surroundings. So we’ll see.

The Dancetronauts sure have quite the setup! Looks great! I’m not sure the white paint would fit our camp’s vibe, though. We specialize mostly in day parties. We still have the system going at night, but it’s nothing crazy. Yet. And again, we love the natural look of wood and stain. The natural look probably doesn’t pop as much at night, but during the day it’s a nice match. Right now we just use flood lights at night. But you have definitely opened a can of worms. Maybe messing around with fabric would look cool with the stain. Something like this, maybe. With lights behind it. Maybe.

https://www.parts-express.com/Speaker-G ... quantity=1

Back to the Dancetronauts setup for a minute, though. Do I count 16 DRs of some sort there? DR280s? It doesn’t seem like their tops have any splay angle, though, so maybe they built them without the splay? Or are they Omnis? And do I count 8 T60s? Also, is that Bill Fitzmaurice I see up there in his space bikini and fur boots, stealing the spotlight again? Classic Bill!

Man, it would be really, really great if those Admark amps pass the test! More than great, actually. Absolutely fantastic!!!


@Carter

Hi Carter! Thanks for the idea! That looks like it would help quite a bit!

However, as I hinted at above, there are rules about the containers. There cannot be any external modifications to the containers that they allow into their storage program. Which is a big bummer. There are third party vendors that don’t care, but they are 3x the price or more. So we must get creative.




Updates


We have drivers arriving next week!

Plywood will be here in two weeks!

The era of sawdust is quickly approaching!!!