BillFitzmaurice.info

Hey guys!

Berlin was intense. I think I could lay down and just sleep for a week:)

I do use gixen which is also an ebay snipe tool since 2008. Wouldn't do Ebay any other way. The risk of getting carried away in the moment is just too high and who has time to sit and place the bid manually in the very last 30 sec of the auction? That's what I did and thought I had to do before 2008 when a collegue introduced me to gixen.

My highest bid was 220€ so yes, I did win that auction and didn't had to pay that premium price. It still is going to hurt some as I have to get it working to make sure it does before I sell off the ultragraph. I will start looking for auctions of the ultragraph in the meantime to see what folks are willing to pay. Don't think it will come up that often.

The item is due for tomorrow or Thursday. I most likely can only collect it from a shop on the following day as I am not home during normal delivery hours.

Will keep you posted.

André

So it did arrive yesterday. I can collect it later today. I have downloaded the handbook and wonder a bit what sort of values I am supposed to use. I will play around with it a bit, but also happy to hear suggestions.

Exciting!

André

Congrats on your winning bid!

There's a lot of ways to go about setting it up. But, I'd do a very simple preliminary setup initially, just to get it up and running so you can identify the best sub placement in the room. After you choose subwoofer locations, we can dig in and really get the system tuned.

- Do a factory reset on the Driverack (page 33 in the manual)
- Set the crossover frequencies
--- In the setup wizard, select custom
--- For the sub output, select a 35Hz Linkwitz-Riley (LR) 24dB highpass filter and a 100Hz 24dB LR lowpass filter
--- For the mid-high outputs, select a 100Hz LR 24dB highpass filter
- Download a SPL meter app on your phone (or an app like "AudioTool" that has lots of additional functions too)
- Disconnect your tops (or power the tops amp off) and play a 100Hz sinewave through your subs, turn it up a little bit (doesn't have to be too loud, just up) and measure the SPL at a specific location that you will likely be for these tests.
- You can start and stop the tone, or mute. But, do not change the volume until you've completed the rest of these steps.
- Power the tops back on and turn the subs off
- Play the tone again and adjust either the gain on the amplifier or the mid/high output trim in the driverack until the tops measure as close as possible to the same SPL reading you got with the subs, in the same exact location
- Turn the subs on and play the tone through both, the subs and the tops together. Measure again. If the SPL went down, find the setting in the Driverack to invert the polarity of your tops. If the SPL went up, you're all good for now. Make a note of how many dB it went up, I'm curious what the figure is.

Don't adjust EQ yet. You're gonna do those steps again after we get your subs figured out and make adjustments for their response.


Give it a listen with some music, just because. Then, do your subwoofer tests we mentioned earlier. Checking for uniform subwoofer polarity and optimum placement in the room. When testing for placement, use only one of the subs initially.

One clever way to identify good locations to try your sub in is to do a "sub crawl". Place the sub in the spot you want it to sound the best (middle of the dancefloor), then crawl around the perimeter of the room and listen/measure for locations where the bass is stronger than other places. Maybe mark those locations with some masking tape or something. Then place the sub at those locations and see how well the bass is represented while standing on the dancefloor.

Hey guys!

Sorry Seth only reading your post now. Therefore I have not done any of your suggestions yet.

What I have done: I did use the set-up wizzard and the EQ wizzard. The APS (or what ever the third one was called) wizzard was a bit too much for me to handle so I put all filters on dynamic.

Did that make a difference to before? I am afraid not. I still have very little output from those speakers which makes me think there is something wrong with them. Strange as I heard a different output before. I wonder if I was fooled and there was a different sub in that basement somewhere that produced that sound rather than those speakers. On the other hand, I remember some airflow through those BRs, which I am not getting now.

I have changed over the power amp to insure its not the amp: No change. I have used a pre-made cable to insure its not the cables: no change. I have run them single: volume the same and louder when combined. Still, you can stand direktly infront of them and have a converstation while there are running on full speed. Not much output at all.

As important as placement is, I fear that won't improve the situation much as there just is not much to be had from those speakers.

What also changed: The auto EQ is doing a good job in cleaning out the signal. The sound became transparent just as I know it from the auto EQ from my Denon amps. It is a bit problematic in that it did cut off a lot of the bass frequencies from the main speakers thinking there is a sub to take over those even when the level coming from those subs is minimal. So beside of not having any LF that should come out of the subs, I am now also lacking the LF that the main fonts where providing. Those have two 12" each and can take a lot of pressure without creating distortion. That is cut off now and they are barely used at all.

So for now, it feels like a clean up in sound but killed the bottom end of it.

I will try to follow what Seth suggested over the next few days. I am also thinking of running it as a 4 speaker system without a sub to get back the part of the LF that is now cut.

I also should try to rule out the conection from Drivepack to poweramp (even when these are newly bought cables) and I might need to try a source other than my DJ controller as an input to make sure there is no anything wrong with that mashine (bought used).

And a final thought that I had over the weekend is that I would like to try to borrow some subs from some other source to see if a different set of speakers do fix the issue.

Even if that last point might be a bit harder to organize, it seems to me the most direct way to get to the root cause of the problem.

What do you think?

Thanks for your input.

André

Do you own a multimeter?

If yes, see if you can measure continuity first, and impedance second.
If you have no continuity, then your subs are toasted...

Hi Grant, sorry no acess to a multimeter currently.

@ Seth: the play store is offering me an Audio Tool from jjbunn, Audio Tools from KRK and an audio tools analyzer from Audio tools.
Well, and there are plenty more to follow, but these are the ones that do contain Audio Tool in their name. Am I right to think since you said "tool" (not tools), that the first is the one you suggest?

Thanks
André

The one thing you said you did is one that I would never do is to run the setup wizard. Auto EQ - yes. Setup wizard - no.

Turn your amp to the subs wide open. Go back into the crossover section and set the gains back to -0- (unity) and start over. Re-balance the system by ear with some music adjusting the output of the subs until it feels right, then run auto EQ. You are able to set the EQ curve that you want the system to replicate - we never use the FLAT setting in live sound, but you should try each setting and see what's the most pleasing sounding to you. I'm guessing the one with the bump on the bottom end and the dip in the low mids will be more to your liking.

Hi Bruce,

just seemed to be the easiest way to get started. I take your point and will give it a go. But only after I do get a serious signal from those subs. That still is the main issue. I can't set any cross-over frequency if I barely hear anything from those sub-speakers even under full throttle.

@ everyone: Another thing that I found curious are the leve-LEDs on the driverack that show the Input, output and sub output levels. While the first two were showing me up to three lights, the sub level never even reached two. For the most part, I was happy to see that single light blinking. Would that speak to a problem on the input side in the LF area? A problem with the DJ Controller?

Gosh, I am nothing but questions I am afraid

André

LioninSpace wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 9:40 am Hi Bruce,

just seemed to be the easiest way to get started. I take your point and will give it a go. But only after I do get a serious signal from those subs. That still is the main issue. I can't set any cross-over frequency if I barely hear anything from those sub-speakers even under full throttle.

@ everyone: Another thing that I found curious are the leve-LEDs on the driverack that show the Input, output and sub output levels. While the first two were showing me up to three lights, the sub level never even reached two. For the most part, I was happy to see that single light blinking. Would that speak to a problem on the input side in the LF area? A problem with the DJ Controller?

Gosh, I am nothing but questions I am afraid

André

You may have some settings really wrong to get absolutely nothing from the subs. In the crossover section, do the following:

On the sub out - set the high pass, then page over and set the low pass. Possible that you set the high pass where the low pass should be - that would kill it pretty much. Then make sure the gain on the sub out is at -0- to start.

I doubt that it's cabling - bad cables don't cause a low signal......it would be intermittent, humming, or nothing at all.

Also check the button in back and make sure the input is correct for +4 or -10db. Not sure what you are driving it with from a signal standpoint.

There is something wrong in the set up. Don't worry, you'll figure it out eventually.

LioninSpace wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 am @ Seth: the play store is offering me an Audio Tool from jjbunn...

I'm sure any of them would be fine. But, the one I have is by jjbunn. It has a lot of functionality, which is good. But, it's also comes with a learning curve, which may not be what you really need at the moment. You can even get an inexpensive "calibrated" microphone to do accurate system response measurements. I haven't used any other app, so I can't say with any certainty that it's "the best". It's just the one that was recommended when I bought the microphone. I like it and find it comes in handy from time to time, even without the "calibrated" microphone.

But really, at this point, just a simple SPL meter app will do.

LioninSpace wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:41 am ...I have used a pre-made cable to insure its not the cables: no change. I have run them single: volume the same and louder when combined...

Excellent! A great step forward. One item checked off the list that we don't have to worry about anymore.

Still, you can stand direktly infront of them and have a converstation while there are running on full speed. Not much output at all.

Bunch of questions:
- Where in the room where the subs placed? Along a wall? In front of the elevated "DJ Booth"? If along a wall, how far away is the nearest corner? If in front of the elevated DJ booth, how far would you estimate the distance is from the front of the cab to the wall behind the DJ booth?
- At any point, did you disconnect the tops and listen to just the subs? If so, any change?

As important as placement is, I fear that won't improve the situation much as there just is not much to be had from those speakers.

I know it's frustrating. But, I'm fairly certain the speakers you have will be more than you need once we get it all ironed out.

What also changed: The auto EQ is doing a good job in cleaning out the signal. The sound became transparent just as I know it from the auto EQ from my Denon amps. It is a bit problematic in that it did cut off a lot of the bass frequencies from the main speakers thinking there is a sub to take over those even when the level coming from those subs is minimal. So beside of not having any LF that should come out of the subs, I am now also lacking the LF that the main fonts where providing. Those have two 12" each and can take a lot of pressure without creating distortion. That is cut off now and they are barely used at all.

Those two 12's are there for mids and lows, not sub frequencies. They're a full range speaker. And, yes, the high pass filter will cut off some of their low frequency capability. But, when running them with subs, you don't want them to operate in full range.

So for now, it feels like a clean up in sound but killed the bottom end of it.

Was the AutoEQ set to achieve flat response? You don't want that.
Are you able to post a picture of the resultant EQ corrections it made?

I am also thinking of running it as a 4 speaker system without a sub to get back the part of the LF that is now cut.

If you have to, for a planned party... yeah, go ahead. But, don't give up just yet.

And a final thought that I had over the weekend is that I would like to try to borrow some subs from some other source to see if a different set of speakers do fix the issue.

Let's make this easy.
- Factory reset the Driverack
- Set the subs high pass 24dB LR 35Hz
- Set the subs Low pass 24dB LR 45Hz... Yes, 45. The guys are going to think I'm crazy, but just do it.
- Set the mid/highs High Pass to 100Hz, 24dB LR
- Put the subs in the corner you didn't want to put them in, one stacked on the other, aimed into the corner at a 45º angle with the front corners of the subs about 6"/15cm from each wall
- Do not EQ
- I assume you're using the DJ controller RCA out's into the Driverack. If so, as Bruce mentioned, check the input sensitivity button on the back of the Driverack and make sure it's set to -10dBv.
- As Bruce also mentioned, turn the gain all the way up on the amp.
- With the tops amp turned off, play some music through the subs alone. Start at low volume and slowly turn it up.

Is it still dead in the room?
Are you able to get the clip indicator light on the amplifier to flicker?

If you're not able to increase the volume enough to the point that the clip indicator illuminates, increase the sub gain in the Driverack until it does.

If there's an improvement in the room and you can get the clip indicator to flicker, turn the gain on the mid/high amp all the way down, turn it on, and slowly increase the gain until it sounds good. Overall system volume should be elevated, but doesn't have to be at war volume to do this. Just a comfortable elevated volume.

Did that achieve any positive results?

Also, on the back of your sub amp, there's an input sensitivity switch. Ensure it's set to 1.4v and the limiter switch is set to off.

Additionally, the "Mode" should be set to mono and ground lift set to GND.

LioninSpace wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:18 am Hi Grant, sorry no access to a multimeter currently.

Do you have a friend from who you can borrow one?

You're chasing your tail if you don't know the subs are working or not...

LioninSpace wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:41 am I have used a pre-made cable to insure its not the cables

Do you know if the cables you used are 4 conductor cables or do you have a link to the cables you used?

I may have found a slight problem.

The channel A Speakon connector on the amplifier is wired with both, channels A and B. So, you could send both channels on one 4 conductor cable, daisy chained to two different speakers that are appropriately wired. Handy. Good design. But, the 4 pole Speakon jack connections to the switchable passive crossover PCB in the subwoofers appear to parallel the two channels together, connecting channel A+ to channel B+, and A- to B-. Super unintelligent design. It should absolutely not be that way. It's rather amazing that I even spotted and recognized the issue. Such a random thing.

I'm not sure if that has any bearing on your issues, but it could. I honestly have no idea how an amplifier would respond to having it's outputs wired together in parallel. If you're only using 2 conductor speaker cables, it's not your problem and not something we have to worry about. If you are using 4 conductor cables, we'll have to discuss possible solutions.




Link to the page the speaker PCB pic came from.

Hi Seth: Just quickly an answer to your last question: The cables I am normally using are those the seller did provide me with. A standart speaker cable (so just 2 lines, not four). I would need to open them up to see if he only used 2 of the terminals inside.

André