BillFitzmaurice.info

Just a couple observations From experience:

You mentioned security on either side. Have a box of ear plugs for them and have the floor guys rotate every 10-15 minutes. Gives them a break from the noise and keeps them from daydreaming and keeps them staying sharp from the constant change of scenery. This does not apply to the actual guy working the door, he stays put all night.

Depending on content, 130dB of edm shouldn't bother your ears if its all bass. If it does attenuate the highs. A high shelving filter on the parametric eq around 3.5k and attenuate down to taste should do it. You should still be able to talk to the guy next to you without yelling.

Our venue is brick and a full house sounds way better than empty. Empty and 3/4 volume is abrasive on the ears from the reflections. Full house is very pleasing to listen to full volume. I think you'll have the same experience. That shelving filter I just mentioned; we start the night about -9db and as our place fills up it gradually goes down (or up?) to about -3, sometimes flat depending on content. Realize tuning thoughout the night is a part of being SE.

hifibob wrote:

Yeah that setup's looking really mean. I approve.

Thanks 88, You should hear it!! Its insane!!!

Some people want to see the 7 wonders of the world before they die. I want to go to a club.

Grant Bunter wrote:

hifibob wrote:

sine143 wrote:I'd start with an 11.5 ms delay on the tops, and work from there (downwards most likely)

also, make sure you use similar slopes and filter types (linkwitz/riley 24 for instance) on the hipass of the tops/lopass on subs (for similar phase delay).

Thanks sine! Your help is always appreciated! Now just make the trip up here!!

Delay works out at about 1 msec per foot.
So if you're biamping as well, and want to align everything to leave respective mouths at the same time, you'd start with the 11.5 sine suggested, about 3msec for your mids and .5msec for your HF if melded, or about 1 msec for compression drivers.

I've seen plenty of people say though they prefer LF to lead tops, by a bit...

edit: oh, and this ^ is on the proviso that all cabs mouths are at the same line in the sand so to speak. So if your T60 mouths are 6' in front of the nearest DR mouth, reduce the delay by 6msec (to 5.5 msec)...

edit2 lol:
11.5 secs would be based on the path length of the T60's being 11 1/2 feet...

grant, its just shy of 1 ms per second. 11.5 ms is actually based on the path length being 13 feet. Considering the width of the sub array, and the distance to the tops, I suspect he'll end up closer to 6 to 10 ms of delay for best integration (assuming hes just trying to match the mid sections of the DRs, I cant recall if he is biamping or not, but he is using piezos). since the Dr280 comes out to ABOUT 3 feet, we can likely knock 3 feet of the t60 delay. it also apears the drs are perhaps another 2 or 3 feet back from the t60 stack, so we can knock about 5 feet total off the 13 foot horn path of the t60, down to 8 feet, or 7.1 ms delay on the MIDs channel, and about 9.75ms of delay on the HI channel (if biamping), to time align mids to subs, and then to time align highs to mids.

In my experience, it's rather easy to set time delay by ear. Put on a track u know well and make it glue together

hifibob wrote:Oh I forgot a pic. DJ booth, lights and CO2

http://s1197.photobucket.com/user/hifib ... 6.jpg.html

I noticed that this pic contains photographic evidence of the first of many patrons killed by overexposure to insanely high SPL. Poor fella...never saw it coming.

Looking fan-freaking-tastic, Bob!!! I really dig the truss style DJ booth/platform.

osse wrote:In my experience, it's rather easy to set time delay by ear.

Not below 100Hz. Your ears just aren't that good. For that matter it's so difficult to hear time align issues below 80Hz that it's only apparent in the most severe cases, and the lower you go the harder it is to hear. That's why where subs are concerned group delay can be pretty much ignored. Oddiophools kvetch over it, because it can be seen on a chart, but they're not big proponents of the truism that what you can't hear doesn't matter.

The real issue with time align is when the resulting difference in phase between the subs and mains causes a response dip. That you can fix by ear, by reversing the polarity of either the subs or mains, playing a test tone at the crossover frequency, then varying the delay until you get a response null. Then you return the polarity to normal. This is how the Altec A7 high frequency horn was time aligned to the bass section, but since delay didn't exist then the HF horn was literally slid back and forth atop the speaker until the right spot was found for it.

How does one change phase of a speakon wired main or sub, on the spot at a gig? And did I understand correctly when someone earlier mentioned that at any gig the speakers can inexplicably be out of phase, when before, wired exactly the same way, they were not??

Rich4349 wrote:How does one change phase of a speakon wired main or sub, on the spot at a gig? And did I understand correctly when someone earlier mentioned that at any gig the speakers can inexplicably be out of phase, when before, wired exactly the same way, they were not??

You change the phase of a low/high output at the DSP. Of course, you could carry shorty phase-change adaptor cables too, but much easier to use the DSP.

Rich4349 wrote: And did I understand correctly when someone earlier mentioned that at any gig the speakers can inexplicably be out of phase, when before, wired exactly the same way, they were not??

There is nothing that can't be explained. Phase/time align doesn't change unless the electronics or the positioning of the speakers are altered.

miked wrote:

Rich4349 wrote:How does one change phase of a speakon wired main or sub, on the spot at a gig? And did I understand correctly when someone earlier mentioned that at any gig the speakers can inexplicably be out of phase, when before, wired exactly the same way, they were not??

You change the phase of a low/high output at the DSP. Of course, you could carry shorty phase-change adaptor cables too, but much easier to use the DSP.

+1.

Rich,
It's more important to check phase, or more precisely, the phase response between subs and tops at the crossover point, when you go gig to gig and room to room.
One would assume that an in house system that never moves has had it's phase response checked.

So yes, you wire everything up the same way every time, but is every room the same? No.
Did you place the cabs to an identical position to the last room? Maybe. Sometimes that just isn't possible, as the "new" room doesn't allow that physically.
It's also a given that EQ on a room to room basis should be undertaken via RTA to "tune" your system to the room.
Tuning to the room, ie using/adjusting EQ, alters phase.
So you should check phase every time.
Since altering system tune by EQ/RTA changes phase, logically you room tune EQ first and, if necessary, adjust phase second.

Don't think it's only necessary for live music. It applies to recorded music as well.
Changes in phase can create nulls. If you haven't checked for phase and just dive to EQ to "correct" the null(s), you alter phase again.

Like any skill, a bit of practice makes the whole process quite quick.

Sorry for the sidetrack Bob...

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:

osse wrote:In my experience, it's rather easy to set time delay by ear.

Not below 100Hz. Your ears just aren't that good. For that matter it's so difficult to hear time align issues below 80Hz that it's only apparent in the most severe cases, and the lower you go the harder it is to hear. That's why where subs are concerned group delay can be pretty much ignored. Oddiophools kvetch over it, because it can be seen on a chart, but they're not big proponents of the truism that what you can't hear doesn't matter.

The real issue with time align is when the resulting difference in phase between the subs and mains causes a response dip. That you can fix by ear, by reversing the polarity of either the subs or mains, playing a test tone at the crossover frequency, then varying the delay until you get a response null. Then you return the polarity to normal. This is how the Altec A7 high frequency horn was time aligned to the bass section, but since delay didn't exist then the HF horn was literally slid back and forth atop the speaker until the right spot was found for it.

Interesting, not that I understand everything of what you wrote.

What I mean is more simply delaying the subs to get the kick in the chest aligned up with when you hear the kick in the mains, last time I corner loaded them this was a rather obvious effect when the time delay was set right, and we had to delay the tops quite a bit to get desired result and let the chestpunch be present at the right moment of the beat. This is actually very important! the best way to compare it to is to have subtitles out of sync in a movie.

So, have the opening night taken place yet? I don't think I speak only for myself when I say that the interest in it is of high interest... how did it go?

OMG. Twelve grunting T60's in all of their completed glory and those DR's wow.

Got to love MIG welders. That cage is pretty slick.

Excited to hear how it all goes.

osse wrote:So, have the opening night taken place yet? I don't think I speak only for myself when I say that the interest in it is of high interest... how did it go?

Here's the site for the joint: http://www.clubtherapyri.com/
Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/therapyri

Opening in 11 days.

hifibob, how are you going to manage unruly DJs who run Pioneer mixers into distortion?

Have a giant, neon "SUCK BUTTON ENGAGED" sign hanging over the DJ booth? It turns on when four of the six amplifiers for the rig are turned off.