Listening in the band

[chenry78]

Ok, Im a drummer and after reading this post im thinking, "am I that guy"? I sure hope not!!!

Are you and your bass player musically joined at the hip? If not you may be one of those guys. Or he may be.

Pretty much, were almost always on the same page and have the same style. So it works well. There have been a few noted times were I have had trouble with time, typically wanting to speed up. Otherwise I try to really focus on time. Much more so now than when I was a teenager playing. The guitarist and myself have been playing together since 1992 and the bassist since 1998 without any problems, we are all in our early thirties and collectively form Nine Years Gone.

[DaveK]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well. Get another drummer or get another lead singer.

In reality, it's his band and that's probably not gonna happen. Another thing that's not gonna happen is the drummer getting any better with your urging. You can push on that string all you want, but it ain't happening. Some things can be fixed with equipment (especially if you pay for the equipment). This one can only be fixed with hard work by the drummer and all the clues you've given indicate the drummer does not currently have the motivation to do that.

Playing in small-time local bands with amateur musicians is always going to require a lot of compromises. Can you live with the ones in this band?

[Harley]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well.

Actually, for a drummer, he interacts with the crowd well and gets their attention. The crowd always knows who is singing. We make sure he is reasonably visible.

Playing in small-time local bands with amateur musicians is always going to require a lot of compromises. Can you live with the ones in this band?

I have worked hard to close the compromise gap in the band ( as witnessed by a few of my threads about patches, singers etc ) and to a large extent it has worked with everyone. The only major tidy up area left is the drumming. We've gone from being an average band to really good. So excellent is the next step, thus fixing the drumming problem is the key.

The drummer has a very good voice and is always in tune.

The irony is that the drummer wants us to be excellent too and his hobby horse is dress. He's onto us about how we should dress, comments about my belly poking out too much when I am in front ( I'm 5'-6" and 160 lb ) as well as the cut of my clothes. These items can be addressed in an instant though once he makes his mind up about the 'corporate dress look' and although I am loathe to take it, this offers me the chance to say "fix the drumming and then we'll fix the dress"

Hence my trying to explore the other ways of skinning the cat before I resort to the latter. We all get on well for a group and I don't want to ruin that.

....Then a serious meeting is in order....Anytime for you guys to sit down before? and not the day of. ...

This is a problem I'd rather try and fix privately ( between him and me ) once I know which direction I should take. Dragging the others into it may be counter-productive and I've already annoyed them enough with my other perfection drives.

[Ron P]

I'm not one to post much, but this topic hits home for me. Allow me to bore you with my story...
At 45, I just got married (for the first time) and basically used it as an excuse to quit my band of almost 25 years. I started playing with these people when I turned 21 and it was like the coolest 21st birthday present ever. These guys played pretty regularly because it was basically their living, and around here, that's not saying much. Nevertheless they were like pros to me. Over the years you get to know all sides of them. They are good people and I think that's what kept me with them for so long. They became like family. What made me decide I had had enough was the fact that my drummer was terrible and my bass player was lazy. I didn't notice that for the first several years because I was having so much fun playing. They grew up together and they were really cut from the same cloth. Neither one of them practiced their art. They didn't work on their skills much less practice the songs we played to learn the details and subtleties. Not on their own time, anyway, only when the band as a whole practiced. They were pretty tight though, all things considered. The drummer was self taught. Not that there's anything wrong with that. However, in his drum learning journey, I believe his has missed some basics along the way. He too, speeds up and slows down through songs. For him, it is probably due to the fact that he never practices, therefore he lacks the stamina to keep up. He also seems afraid to keep a hi hat or cymbal beat going for some reason. Add that to the fact that he doesn't thoroughly learn the songs (nor the bass player)...and well... I have confronted him (them) about my concerns a few times over the years and of course they were nothing but offended. Could be my approach. I'm sure the alcohol didn't help....
But they are good people and we were not a professional band. We were a weekend bar band. Not that I am super fantastic. I'm actually pretty average. It's tough though. There can be a fine line there. You like the people, you just want more out of them cuz you know you could be better.
BTW, after I quit some other band hired my drummer and they needed a guitar player, so.....I'm still playing with my drummer. Guess what - the bass player confronted me about how bad the drummer is.
He is a good guy though....

[wallywally]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well. Get another drummer or get another lead singer.

Check this out
http://youtu.be/6j0xlRqrKQ8

[doncolga]

Of all musicians, shouldn't drummers be the best at keeping tempo...either establishing or following? I guess "should" is the key word there. I know a couple who do very well, just great, controlled playing. They're both in their late 50's early 60's and have a ton of experience. But this issue pops up frequently. Maybe its cause of drums are just more obvious when they drift? I'm certain that I drift when I play solo keys, but it's not nearly as obvious since it's just me and its not as obvious on a piano. I had a drummer totally scoff at me on the Cakewalk Sonar forums when I brought up a drummer playing to a metronome. He asked me if I'd be able to do that... .....ummm....yes...what's the big deal? I wonder too if its just harder for a drummer to hear a click if the drums are very loud. But from what I understand it's fairly common on some really big touring acts to follow a metronome from a digital audio workstation.

Has he tried to play with a metronome or would he be totally against it? I'm guessing that later as it would highlight a weakness and "All Right Now" comes to mind as an older track where you can even hear the metronome on the recording. Personally, I don't like to hear bands live and the performance is a totally different tempo than the recording.

[doncolga]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well. Get another drummer or get another lead singer.

Check this out
http://youtu.be/6j0xlRqrKQ8

*Very* steady tempo...not too flashy, but flashy enough. Love it.

[Harley]

Has he tried to play with a metronome or would he be totally against it?....

Well, he says he can play to a click track no problem, but when I suggested we actually do that I got "I have enough going on with all the other stuff I have to do"

It would mean I would be setting the click track each song which is no problem and we'd have to work out the tempo beforehand as we play most songs live a little faster than the recording ( which most bands do )

Of all musicians, shouldn't drummers be the best at keeping tempo...either establishing or following?

Not necessarily the drummer as it could be easily be the bassist ( as I have experienced with several drummers previous ) - just so long as the duo listen to each other and have the understanding of who is the beat master. Traditionally though, most people expect the drummer to lead the tempo.

[Grant Bunter]

Harley?
Can he see how the band has improved with the input you've made so far?
Has he commented in any way about that?
Or, being "his" band, has he been getting more comments about overall performance of the band lately?
And are there many decent bass players in your area?

The first three q's go to your half a plan to play the drumming/dress card. Not so useful if it isn't already in his sights that the band is improving due to efforts other than his own.
The last q goes to, if push came to shove with your questions and tactics, can you use the "I'm the best bass player around here, and if you don't want to pick up your game, like everyone else in the band has..."

[Harley]

Can he see how the band has improved with the input you've made so far?
Has he commented in any way about that? Or, being "his" band, has he been getting more comments about overall performance of the band lately?

I don't know if he can see it and attribute it to my incessant badgering that's got us so far. If he has, he's kept quiet about it. To be fair, everyone has had their input too, so it's not just me. However I do take credit for the foundation.

And are there many decent bass players in your area?

There are a few...and

......"I'm the best bass player around here,.."

....I'm not. Like Bruce Gavin used to say "There's always a faster gun-slinger comes into town!"

[Grant Bunter]

Can he see how the band has improved with the input you've made so far?
Has he commented in any way about that? Or, being "his" band, has he been getting more comments about overall performance of the band lately?

I don't know if he can see it and attribute it to my incessant badgering that's got us so far. If he has, he's kept quiet about it. To be fair, everyone has had their input too, so it's not just me. However I do take credit for the foundation.

And are there many decent bass players in your area?

There are a few...and

......"I'm the best bass player around here,.."

....I'm not. Like Bruce Gavin used to say "There's always a faster gun-slinger comes into town!"

Bugga, back to the drawing board...

[Harley]

Bugga, back to the drawing board...

Not really, I've got enough ideas from here now to know what the next steps are;

1) Get this sound guy to record the songs I know we have problems with this coming weekend,
2) Get youtube samples of drummers singing, keeping beat and locking in with bass players,
3) Copy and bullet point all the relevant comments, ideas etc here onto paper,
4) Research an affordable headgear mic,
5) Cautiously find out the extent of concern to the KG and Guitar guys, and
6) Meet with the drummer, play the recordings, discuss the problems, lay out the evidence, see if the headgear-mic solution would work and see how open he is to try and improve things. Discuss any other options pointed out here. If there's absolutely no progress to be made or improvement in sight, decide if it's worth me hanging around.

[chenry78]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well. Get another drummer or get another lead singer.

Check this out
http://youtu.be/6j0xlRqrKQ8

excellent example

[Gregory East]

Suggest moving to replace tunes he has the most trouble with, making damn sure he can get his head around any new tune before the group takes it on.

[Harley]

Suggest moving to replace tunes he has the most trouble with, making damn sure he can get his head around any new tune before the group takes it on.

Trouble is if we remove the tunes he has trouble with, we'd severely cut our set list, and then what do you replace it with.

Nah, the only way is for him to take responsibility to fix the problem now that I've thrashed this out here and in my mind.