Experimental Tuba 36

[Steve Regier]

BTW I got a personal message from a person who I will not identify suggesting I investigate Tapped Horn enclosures. I did. Here's what I fould:
1. I have seen and been with guys using the Danley TH115 - You need at LEAST 1000watts to drive the thing. They also seem to require expensive drivers with high XMAX ratings.
2. TH's are very directional.
3. TH's do not accoustically couple very well. It's like using high powered lasers to cover a large area with light. You need a bunch.
4. If you have a lot of watts and want to play low and loud maybe a TH is OK
5. If I use the same number of watts with more BFM cabs I will have more sound with more even coverage.
IF I WANTED TO HAUL ARROUND A BUNCH OF THIRSTY GEAR AND MASSIVE AMPS THAT CAN'T RUN TOGETHER ON THE KIND OF CIRCUIT YOU GET IN A SMALL CLUB I WOULDN'T BE HERE!
TTFN

[Radian]

You need at LEAST 1000watts to drive the thing.

They also seem to require expensive drivers with high XMAX ratings.

For a given driver diameter, Volumetric displacement (a product of Xmax), is a desirable characteristic for any horn alignment, not just TH's. Bill has found just about every reasonably priced driver for horn loading with high Xmax out there.

TH's are very directional.

The distortion from the backwave of the driver is highly locatable, especially at higher power levels. Point the mouth of a TH away from the audience (preferably at a corner, wall, or irregular surface and the effect [directionality] diminishes). Using a low crossover frequency reduces it even more.

TH's do not accoustically couple very well.

No doubt. And they will not extend any further than their cutoff frequency.

If you have a lot of watts and want to play low and loud maybe a TH is OK

Once again, I own offerings from both the TH community, Bill Fitzmaurice, Klipsch and have had some couch time with Danley's gear. The charts don't lie. TH's are typically more (in certain cases WAY more) sensitive. Bill's cabs play exceptionally cleaner for just a small take in sensitivity.

If I use the same number of watts with more BFM cabs I will have more sound with more even coverage.

Certainly! Horns are a sure win. Either way.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

BTW I got a personal message from a person who I will not identify suggesting I investigate Tapped Horn enclosures.

Tapped horns, like all alignments, have advantages and disadvantages. The advantage is high sensitivity to low frequencies, the disadvantages are above bandwidth harmonics and driver unloading below the horn cut-off. IMO those disadvantages outweigh the advantages for the average user. We do have a tapped horn in our inventory, the Table Tuba. It gets around the harmonic problem via proper placement, with the open driver chamber facing a wall or the floor, and at the levels used in a home the unloading situation isn't problematic.
There are many DIY TH designs out there, and IMO most are seriously flawed, achieving performance not much better, if at all, than vented boxes. They suffer from the same limitations of all tapped horns, but, not being designed by the likes of Tom Danley, don't even vaguely approach the performance of Tom's designs. Or Tubas and Titans.

[Steve Regier]

Thanks for the input on the TH's everyone. I really I must admit a large amount of my frustation comes from my wandering in the audio wasteland. I have been building loudspeaker cabs. off and on since I was 13 years old. My first source of income was derived from builing cabs and amps to order. As a kid it was hard to get any respect so I read books and learned by trial and error. I have worked as an audio engineer, a FM DJ, Broadcast engineer, auto mechanic, truck driver, IT consultant, but my love for audio remains. I now have a small music publishing business with several artisits. I have been using direct radiators in my PA. The trouble I have is the bulk of the gear and the amout of power required. Some of the places we play have very poor power and I have added a generator to power my PA (It also powers my home during blackouts). All this time I knew there must be a better way. I need light weight efficient gear with a big sound. Finding Bill's designs and this forum was just what I was seeking.
I appologize to all you TH guys out there. We all have our favorites I guess. My experience with the Danley TH115's was good and they did hit hard and play low. But they were heavy and the guy that had them was running 1000+ watts per cab. They were smaller than my dual 21" sub cabs but to me it would be a costly step sideways. My experience with BFM designs has been better than I had hoped. The forum is a great tool as well.
Thanks again to all of you out there.
I will be posting more build pics shortly and video of the dress rehearsal in Milford, IL on June 19th. You are all invited.

[ewetho]

Well Went out to the Farm to semi suprise baronvonsteve out with his build up to the Milford show and we had a good day. He currently has 1 OTop 15 and 2 Titan 48's complete. Got the main box for a second OTop and m9st of the inners for the second pair of Titans build. And they are pretty dang square. We can't wait. He was fretting having it done it time so i thought I'd lend a hand. Hoping to have 4 OTop 15's 2 melded arrays and 2 flat array's done. The Titans may not be dressede for the rehearsal gig but hopefully will all be functional.

Hat's off so far to Leland for his supplies. Great stuff so far.

BFM your designs are fabulous and they sound better than that!!!

If we get it all done we are hoping to crush teh place! LOL!!

[Steve Regier]

Thanks to Ewetho and Leland for their help on this project.
Now for the 1st review:
Setting: High School Gym/Auditorium
Size: Regulation Basketball Court with bleachers and stage area
Venue: High School Alumni reunion
PA Tasks: Sound reinforcement for DVDs, Wireless mics for MC's,and DJ Music all with the objective of clear sound without harshness or excessive volume as some of the attendees graduated as early as 1935.
Setup: Qty 2 Tuba 36s V-Plated in corner stage right, Qty 2 12" B52 vented cabs on a pole
Power: Crown XTI1000, Behringer Euro 1500
Final Factor: Live band of alumni show up last minute to play during event: SURPRISE!
First: The Tubas Rocked! At full power test they were rattling the folding chairs accross the floor.
Notes: The Tubas produced a sound that was both musical and powerful. Like approaching thunder. I could easilly tell where the bass wavelengh ended as I crossed the floor. It seemed like I could have plated another pair in the other corner at the left of the stage over 60' away for even more boom. It would have been nice to have the Otops but the B52s did their job quite well as the Tubas did the heavy lifting. I never had a room SPL higher than 105Db during the event. Many people commented on the pleasant nature of the sound. The old school songs and marches here awesome as people were moved to their feet by the boom of the bass drum.
The REALLY fun part: When the band came in to setup I had left to get some supplies. When I returned they were testing their stage gear. They were using some JBL Pro 15" 2way boxes as PA mains. The lead singer was on the floor listening as they tried to adjust their box mixer. The singer was complaing that the system sounded harsh. I suggested they give me a feed to my PA and they could then reduce the stage volume and get a more pleasing sound. The keyboad player said "What PA? I only see a couple of cabs on a stick." I motioned toward the Tubas and he looked and said "What are those?". "The subs" I replied. "Who makes these...and why are they on their sides? We only use horns for long throw." "I made them", I replied and tried to explain the setup. His eyes glazed over and he put his nose in the air and said" I only use JBL...I don't think it will do any good but I'll give you a feed." I hooked up the band and the synth bass and kick drum were booming. Vocals were clear and present. I asked " ... everything sound OK?" Not a word from the keyboard section. Hmmmm
Conclusion: Thanks to Bill and everyone here on the forum I looked really good in the sound department. As I told the band "Let me know if you guys will be here next year so I can bring the big PA."

[djtecthreat]

The keyboad player said "What PA? I only see a couple of cabs on a stick." I motioned toward the Tubas and he looked and said "What are those?". "The subs" I replied. "Who makes these...and why are they on their sides? We only use horns for long throw." "I made them", I replied and tried to explain the setup. His eyes glazed over and he put his nose in the air and said" I only use JBL...I don't think it will do any good but I'll give you a feed." "

When he said "I only use JBL" I would snapped back with "What is that Junk. Blasting. Loudly.?" Sorry but I wouldn't have given them any PA support if I didn't have to, I would've found an excuse to pump the system for a couple minutes while they were in the area. Let them know what's up.

[Steve Regier]

You must have been in my head, DJTech. Thanks what I was thinking. However, I try to be the professional and save the schwanz measuring for lesser men.

[djtecthreat]

You must have been in my head, DJTech. Thanks what I was thinking. However, I try to be the professional and save the schwanz measuring for lesser men.

I'm professional as can be. But when I extend a hand (like you did) and then get sand kicked in my face for trying to be nice, that's when you unleash the demon.

[ewetho]

When he said "I only use JBL" I would snapped back with "What is that Junk. Blasting. Loudly.?" Sorry but I wouldn't have given them any PA support if I didn't have to, I would've found an excuse to pump the system for a couple minutes while they were in the area. Let them know what's up.

Back about 1993 when I had a nice car stereo a guy I knew into compeptition care stereo said JBL stood for Junk 'But Loud! LOL

But he said it sounded really good. I never switched an EQ setting for anything and it all sounded fine.


Look at the bright side by smart-mouthing the guy back he then got to crush the guy with his gear and wether or not he would admit it he knew he got crrushed. Until baronvonsteve introduced me to this site and got to help build some of this and test it I too was a JBL fan.

Things change. Maybe he will be more open to the possibility of BFM designs. I love them and was once a Junk But 'Loud Fan myself. Could get clean sound just not nearly as loud with as few watts. WOW!!!

[SeisTres]

Wow, what's with all the JBL hating? For pro sound, their products deliver. Sure you might have to pay a big premium for the brand, but you get what you pay for, no? Ya'll make it sound as if they were rebranding Nady cabs and sticking their logos on there.

From what I have been able to work on, all the JBL stuff is a pleasure to work with, which is something I cannot say for alot of other companies. Not to mention that they're one of the few companies that actually puts out charts and measurements and some educational links for it's users.

[Sydney]

what's with all the JBL hating?

Big targets are easy targets

[Gregory East]

Great story. The "no comment" comment is priceless. I bet that was a way better result than any verbal dustup could have achieved.

T36 being supplemented with T48? 60ft apart hopefully.

btw, I was introduced to JBL as "Just Bloody Loud".

[LelandCrooks]

Depends. Their bottom end stuff is no different than anybody else. When you step up the midrange and up gear you do get very good quality gear. They deserve respect if for no other reason than their contributions to the industry.

[Sydney]

As Leland just pointed out JBL ( post Harman takeover ) broaden their product line.
Including HT and auto sound products that (IMO) just capitalized on their Pro name.
Guys ( and it is predominately a male thing ) love to argue especially about gear.
Unfortunately the discussions often end up like fans of a sporting teams reducing discourse down to reactive "they suck" declarations, rather than objective evaluations of performances.
The bad meal syndrome and builders bias also come into play.
Pragmatically, equipment are tools not teams.

Syd