BillFitzmaurice.info

Grant Bunter wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:48 pm Lots of people simply don't know this stuff

Most don't. If they did you'd never see mains stacked above subs in advertising for PA gear, but unfortunately that's how they're usually shown.

A couple years back we hired a "professional" sound company to do our sound and I had to pull the "I'm a paying customer, therefore I'm the boss" card to get them to cluster the subs together and put the tops on separate stands.

A year or so later they were doing sound for a "music in the park" kind of deal. Sound was okay. Not too too bad. HUGE noticeable power alley though. It's kind of like comb filtering, in that, if I stand still my ears become accustomed to the sound, but moving across the listening area revealed very noticeable inconsistencies. Bass was huge fat and meaty up the middle. Lacking and borderline insufficient outside of the power alley. It fell off quick to the sides. My guess is, it's probably tied into the way "cardioid" subwoofer placement works.

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:30 pm

Grant Bunter wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2020 6:48 pm Lots of people simply don't know this stuff

Most don't. If they did you'd never see mains stacked above subs in advertising for PA gear, but unfortunately that's how they're usually shown.

Bill, this is a little ironic. From the Sub Placement sticky I made it to the Peavey article for boundary cancellation. They talk in there about clustering subs in the middle of the dance floor then go on to explain the math. And on the same site are showcasing their systems at NAMM, set up in the same way that apparently shredded their cones in the past.

https://www.peavey.com/products/index.c ... 65/118813/

Not sure what the motivation is since they know better. But they are supporting the method they admit doesn't work.

This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.

I try to follow the sub placement rules when I can, but sometimes you have to weigh the power alleys against all of the other factors. Two years ago, I did an outdoor event and put the subs in front of the stage, but with the windy conditions, we had to lash the speaker tripods to the tent poles over the stage... sounded great, but was concerned.

Last year, same place - we went with our normal "big show" outdoor setup even though we couldn't get it very far apart. Yeah, there were power alleys, but the crowd was all on their feet milling around so it really wasn't that noticeable and I felt a lot better about the setup this way.

Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

Bruce Weldy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.

SethRocksYou wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am
Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.

Unfortunately, I can't stack OTops on my v-plate......I've done a mono stack before indoors with a single T39 and two OTops.

Oh, and I need a pretty tall ladder to get the last OTops up there!

That stack you see is right at 8 feet to the top.....

You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.

Bruce Weldy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am I try to follow the sub placement rules when I can, but sometimes you have to weigh the power alleys against all of the other factors. Two years ago, I did an outdoor event and put the subs in front of the stage, but with the windy conditions, we had to lash the speaker tripods to the tent poles over the stage... sounded great, but was concerned.

Last year, same place - we went with our normal "big show" outdoor setup even though we couldn't get it very far apart. Yeah, there were power alleys, but the crowd was all on their feet milling around so it really wasn't that noticeable and I felt a lot better about the setup this way.

Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

2019 St. Patty's Day at Pour Haus.jpg

Nice setup, Bruce. And it makes sense what you're saying. I'd love to have my cake and eat it, too. But I guess that isn't always the case.

Bruce Weldy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 pm You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.

I'm willing to bet the average patron would never notice it.

SethRocksYou wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:56 am

Bruce Weldy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:32 am Life is a trade-off sometimes.....

Looks like a single stack may have been an option too. Envisioning a four stack of O-tops on 6 V-plated Titans get's me giggling a little inside.

Me too. The cabs just look mean. I love it!

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:45 am This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.

I didn't think of it that way. But it makes sense when you consider that the companies' goals are to make money.

Bruce Weldy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:37 pm You'll also notice that both stacks are angled toward where I'm taking the pic at FOH. Time issues? Probably, but I went for better coverage of where the people were going to be as opposed to the stage orientation - which was off by quite a bit.

Yeah, I noticed that. I think that's what had me thinking about a single stack on the left to get the coverage, limit cancellations, power alley, and other timing issues, and also open a clear(er) line of sight to the stage area. I wasn't there and I have nowhere near your experience. I'm sure you made the right call given the available conditions and circumstances.

I guess, in the end, every gig is it's own unique situation and it's your/my/whoever's call on what the appropriate balance of trade-off's and compromises are to achieve the primary objective. Apparently, sound quality isn't always at the top of the priorities list. Sometimes it's even at the bottom of the list. Guess we just do what we gotta do. Put forth reasonable effort to get it as right as possible, throw a hand in the air, and ride it out. Right? Yee Haw!

Ideal and perfect are two different things altogether and rarely occur at the same time.

Bryan Cox wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:07 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: ↑Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:45 am This is what happens when the only thing shared between the engineering department and the marketing department is the parking lot. Even if the marketeers know that it's wrong they'll still do it that way, because they're not in the business of educating their customers in the right way to set up PA. They're in the business of giving uninformed buyers what they want.

I didn't think of it that way. But it makes sense when you consider that the companies' goals are to make money.

People make excuses for win-lose, but in the end it's bad form. Regrettably, one has to be an informed buyer - that takes time and effort.

Charles Jenkinson wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am
Regrettably, one has to be an informed buyer - that takes time and effort.

You can say that again. Never knew the plethora of information until I came here.