what is a good mixer for the money?

[BrentEvans]

Do give it some serious consideration, it will sound a lot better than any entry level analog setup you buy, and it can all live in a smallish rack.

Ever hear digital clipping??? Nastiest sound on the planet! Sounding better would be subjective and I'd bet there are guys that can shine on an entry level analog such as a mixwiz as good as others on a fully digital setup.

It's all in the deployment of the gear and this is where being a newb can really hurt you! Learning a digital rig is doable but I still think you get in the game faster with a simpler setup.I also think your confidence level will grow faster with analog as well due to the fact that you spend less time learning the system and more time actually mixing.

The only place SAC can clip digitally is on the outputs, which is pretty easy to avoid - keep the little bouncing meter out of the red, or spend an extra $100 and get Bob's levelizer plug which can easily be set for a brickwall limiter. The level of metering in SAC makes it extremely easy to prevent any type of oversaturation, and the 24 bit internal engine prevents channel clipping (the clip lights light up but it's not audibile clipping, just "theoretical". You can of course clip the pres, but thus is every mixer, and the ADA's actually sound better than most when driven to that level.

As for better sound, not in its price point. There is no combination of gear that you can buy for less than $2000 that will sound as good or better. The elimination of electronics-induced distortion (which is great in that price range), cabling (bye-bye to hum and buzz, for the most part), and complete level of control (5 band parametric EQ on every channel, additional bands limited only by processor power, Comp/Gate on every channel, etc.) is a better long term investment, and leaves plenty of growing room.

One of the points the OP mentioned is that he is consistently put off by others' sound. I think that this alone warrants serious consideration into the best price-performance mixing system of anything else out there. It really isn't that difficult to learn, and just as the folks on this forum are more than willing to explain how to PL wood together, we're more than willing to explain (in detail) how to get yourself up and running. Additionally, with digital, once you get it RIGHT, you can save it and just tweak from show to show, leaving you MORE time to focus on mixing.

Just a little personal anecdote, I have this installed at church. It took the place of a pretty standard mixer/eq/fx rack, it is the only thing between mics and amps. Before, I had to have almost every band of a 31 band eq engaged to sort of kind of get feedback under control, and it sounded like it. Now, I do strip EQ only, with an extra 7 bands on the lav mic to eliminate rings. The system has no feedback at all and sounds worlds better, and we had pretty decent equipment before (Mackie VLZ24-4, Rane EQ, Lexicon FX, DBX compressors, EV crossover, etc). I have 6db more gain than in the old system, and I have clear clean sound. The room is great for acoustics, and a nightmare for sound with the main speaker 6 feet from the mics, nasty bass nodes, etc. This is the only system I want to ever use again.

Anyone of any skill level who is investing $1000 or more in a mixer and processing gear should be seriously considering this system, even if it's not the final choice. OP can be up and running for $1000-$1500 easily for 8 channels, with room to grow, which would include all EQ, FX, dynamics processing, whatever, that he'd ever need or want. He can start simple, get a lot of good help, and have the best system he can possibly have, especially in this price range.

[Ron K]

Regarding a fully digital setup:

The Behringer ADAs are the first audio interface in the system.They can be clipped.A lot of SAC rigs run the ADAs up on stage and then use the Firewire interface to link them to the main system computer hosting the SAC Program. That's all usually up or around the stage area.Then through the wonderful world of wireless Ethernet they link to the FOH Computer running the remote operating program for the mix.Nice rig all digital with a wireless snake.

This is where a real problem develops.There are trims on those ADAs and to not have them at FOH is a problem especially with multi-act setups. What do you do when the guitar players turns up? Quick run back up stage and turn down the ADA trim.

Now I know you can run the ADAs at FOH if you pipe all the audio down a traditional snake eliminating the need for the wireless ethernet.Then if you want all those nice available monitor mixes you will need to have a big snake with lots of extra sends! Or for even more money you can reverse the process and put ADAs on each end FOH and Stage! You could go wired to FOH and Wireless to the Wedge mixes! Hows the price tag now?

Question for Brent: How many times a week do you tear down your SAC rig and move it from venue to venue and mix live bands?

You state the ADAs sound better clipping then Analog board inputs.Personally I wouldn't want either to clip at all and wouldn't care if one sounded better clipped then the other. A clipped signal is garbage and will sound like garbage. Were not talking guitar amps here.The reference I made to digital clipping sounding bad is it does especially on HF passages.I still dont want it in my signal chain at all.

"OP mentioned is that he is consistently put off by others' sound." Maybe it's more the operators then the rigs.I've seen many a bad operator on very good rigs and they make them sound horrible.I've seen plenty of good operators on not so decent rigs and they make them sound pretty dam good.It's all a matter of application and knowing where the limits are and knowing the acoustics of the environment you are working in.Deployment has as much to do with the final outcome as the gear itself.Then you factor in the talent!!!

I'm not saying a SAC or Digital rig is not the way to go. I really do believe for a novice it will lend itself to more available areas to make bad decisions and a simple Analog desk will remove lots of those areas.You dont always need tons of EQ and tons of dynamics controls.Basic 4-band with sweeps and a 31 band graphic on mains and monitors has gotten many sound guys through for many years long before digital hit the stage.They can and do make that work and sound very good.Good sounding stages have been around for many years and digital was not part of that equation at all.It's the difference between doing it right and just doing it. I for many years when compression was needed just reached for my Multi Core Insert snake and patched in a compressor or a gate on the channel I needed it on. Took all of 4 seconds to do. Another minute to dial the unit in and away we go.On my O1V I cant even get the setting right in that amount of time. The digital board is slower and it even takes time to find where on the menu the cursor is sitting before moving it.Do I like the Yamaha O1V. Of course I do .It has everything built in on every channel but it is not the fastest thing on the planet and in some cases the dynamic controls are anemic.

For example my Drawmer Gates make the gates in the O1V look infantile.Yamaha gates have serious high level signal limitations as well.The gate can and does begin to open on very loud stage rock drums and there is no way to stop it.The threshold can be set no higher then 0db and that's a problem. Same situation exists in SAC regarding gating.0 db means you cant run any hotter without opening the gate.Yamaha doesn't offer filter gates , both the Behringer and the Drawmers do. My Drawmer gates can be set to run up to +20 db and even my old model Behringer Quad Gates can be run up that high.Think a new guy is going to figure that out while playing with SAC or a Digital Board. As soon as Mr. loud drummer goes to play hes gonna say hey I need to gate that tom because its ringing way too long, set it only to find the live snare will constantly open up said digital gate!Of course during sound check the drummer is only playing that one ringing tom and the gate works fine as long as that's all that in the mic at the time.Then while in the first song the drummer rolls over the toms and back on the snare beat only to hear that dam tom ringing or pulsing through the snare opening the gate. This is a real world example here! It happens especially on loud rock stages.

Most digital units call 0db the limit on the inputs while my Allen/Heath Console allows up to +21db on the inputs! That's before clipping occurs. Same preamps are in the mixwiz BTW! You're only gonna get +10 on the Behringer ADAs and 0 inside SAC or any digital board.In digital you're stuck playing inside a smaller window of operation = less forgiving IMHO! Noise specs are similar between good analog consoles and digital ones and the ADA8000 comes in at -86db. -128db for Mic inputs on A/H Boards like mixwix and gl series and they drop on the line level to -83db @0db gain.


Again I am not one bit opposed to digital for live. It's a fantastic tool but there are and with most things, there will always be some limitations. Knowing what they are and where they lie is all part of the big picture. To me I remember back when I first started. I cut my teeth on a pretty simple system (SM58s-57s, Altec A7s, and Mothers Wholesome audio console with old SAE amps w/10 band graphics;monitors were those old Community Fiberglass 12s) and my confidence level grew quickly because I wasn't overwhelmed by the tasks ahead and I had a very good teacher. Former Clairs guy who BTW recently passed away, God rest his soul!

Digital is a fantastic tool and probably what will lie ahead in the future of pro audio.Is it a viable starting point for guys just getting started? I'm not so sure about that one.All I know from a real world perspective of doing this for over 20 years is you can do well with simple gear and you can always expand when the time is right and you feel comfortable to take those steps.

KISS
peace all and Happy Thanksgiving early because I probably wont make it on much this week.Very busy week ahead! Muchos shows!

[quaizywabbit]

This is where a real problem develops.There are trims on those ADAs and to not have them at FOH is a problem especially with multi-act setups. What do you do when the guitar players turns up? Quick run back up stage and turn down the ADA trim.

Nope. each input has an attenuator which has very generous levels of cut and boost. no need to mess with input trims on the ADA's unless some idiot messed with them when you weren't looking....

[Haysus]

The OP is put off by other systems. I did not read any comparison rig info. He currently is PLANNING to build BFM cabs. When I got mine I thought I entered a world leaps better than most commercial boxes. That is already an upgrade for the crappiest analog mixer. 12-16 channels in a rack mount size is simple. Keeping it simple is not SAC for a kinda new guy. I am jumping on board with SAC and have been struggling myself both with the entire digital aspect and budget. SAC is great gear but I believe OP doesn't have that much money. In a year when he is familiar with running FOH and saving some cash he would be wise to think about upgrading. My $.02

[AntonZ]

(on behringer gear) Look at their discontinued multi-reverb effect processor, for the price, it is amazing.

Which model is that? There is so much Behringer gear out there, I have no idea which one this would be.

[Ron K]

This is where a real problem develops.There are trims on those ADAs and to not have them at FOH is a problem especially with multi-act setups. What do you do when the guitar players turns up? Quick run back up stage and turn down the ADA trim.

Nope. each input has an attenuator which has very generous levels of cut and boost. no need to mess with input trims on the ADA's unless some idiot messed with them when you weren't looking....

How does the signal not increase at the ADAs input when the signal on stage increases when someone turns up?

In my live world I see that lots usually at the start of each subsequent set and also when the band really starts groovin in the dynamics like on accents and coming back in after a break! I try and keep my trims at reasonable levels from the start but to say they never have to be changed is simply not truthful. With some bands who have excellent control and start off with very good dynamics I see that and dont need to adjust trims. There's usually plenty of headroom. I most definitely see the opposite on more occasions. The latter is a sound mans treat but not the norm unless you are mixing nationals each night.

[quaizywabbit]

he'll end up nickle and diming himself to death in outboard gear, snakes, and cords just to get whats already built in to SAC. Either way its gonna cost money, but if i had to learn it all from the beginning again I would have just bought SAC, built my system around it, and NOT have all this useless gear cluttering my garage.

Plus SAC is actively developed, which means the feature set will continue to improve, even as great as it is now, thats something you DONT get with analog gear.

[quaizywabbit]

This is where a real problem develops.There are trims on those ADAs and to not have them at FOH is a problem especially with multi-act setups. What do you do when the guitar players turns up? Quick run back up stage and turn down the ADA trim.

Nope. each input has an attenuator which has very generous levels of cut and boost. no need to mess with input trims on the ADA's unless some idiot messed with them when you weren't looking....

How does the signal not increase at the ADAs input when the signal on stage increases when someone turns up?

In my live world I see that lots usually at the start of each subsequent set and also when the band really starts groovin in the dynamics like on accents and coming back in after a break! I try and keep my trims at reasonable levels from the start but to say they never have to be changed is simply not truthful. With some bands who have excellent control and start off with very good dynamics I see that and dont need to adjust trims. There's usually plenty of headroom. I most definitely see the opposite on more occasions. The latter is a sound mans treat but not the norm unless you are mixing nationals each night.

the idea is to set the input trim on the ada's to a nominal level and account for differences digitally using the attenuator. So far my input trims are set at halfway or 12 oclock, the rest i use the attenuator. That said I end up with signal levels with imperceptable hiss, great dynamic range, and more than enough of it to shape to my liking....and thats running the system at 44.1k/16bit, havent even tried 48k or 24bit yet....

[BrentEvans]

the idea is to set the input trim on the ada's to a nominal level and account for differences digitally using the attenuator. So far my input trims are set at halfway or 12 oclock, the rest i use the attenuator. That said I end up with signal levels with imperceptable hiss, great dynamic range, and more than enough of it to shape to my liking....and thats running the system at 44.1k/16bit, havent even tried 48k or 24bit yet....

Yup. 4 clicks on my ADAs are about -10db. Then, boost 10DB in SAC, and you've got instant 10db headroom with no added noise. This is standard practice with these rigs - either start sound check with a 10db boost on the SAC channel strip attenuator (almost guarantees no clipping at the pres) or start everything at 0 and then back off 4 clicks, and raise the attenuator back to working levels. Additionally, the ADAs are very very forgiving of oversaturation. I've had the clip lights brightly lit before with no audible distortion.

Regarding the noise floor issue, removing the analog summing bus goes a long way toward noise reduction, and having good electrical isolation goes a long way too (the ADAs are pretty isolated, since optical cables connect everything together). Ground loops aren't impossible, but very rare. Additionally, in live sound, we often squash the snot out of most sources, making dynamic range less important than in studio recording. You will never hear the difference between -80db and -120db, but you will hear the difference between a system comprised of a small mixer, decent EQ, and amps, and a system with full dynamic and EQ control.

Everybody has to make a decision for themselves, there are some pretty decent analog options out there, but if investing over $1000, SAC is worth a look. It can be done for $1500, which is darn close to the cost of a nice small mixer, EQ, and crossover.

[bitSmasher]

Is learning on a digital board/system going to translate to fluently operating an analogue board?

Forget buying the equipment for a minute, what about the basic functions of knowing which knob does what, how to set/reset and quickly fix mistakes.

[quaizywabbit]

speed is something that comes with practice......remember, SAC covers 72 input channels, 24 individual monitor mixes, 6 aux send/returns, and whatever outputs you have left after assigning the above......imagine intuitively reaching for the correct fader or knob with a console that damn big.

Just as with an analog board, you have the choice to work as simply or as complex as you wish....but to have hands on control, you need a control surface appropriate to your skill set to make fast changes....

or you make carefully planned scene changes in advance.........

Navigating quickly to what needs tweaking is fast, but requires you to relearn the instincts that hardware tought you....

[quaizywabbit]

Is learning on a digital board/system going to translate to fluently operating an analogue board?

Forget buying the equipment for a minute, what about the basic functions of knowing which knob does what, how to set/reset and quickly fix mistakes.

nothing can help you if you dont understand the function of each module(attenuator, gate, compressor, eq, pre/post fx, aux sends, etc....

set/reset is most efficiently done by saving a scene, which recalls everything saved as part of that scene, and can be done over a pre-determined time (thats where the moving faders come in..)

quickly fixing a mistake means recognizing asap that you made one. There is no substitute for paying attention, or learning what does what BEFORE you use it in a critical situation. Whatever you messed with, put it back, or recall a "default" scene if too much stuff got out of hand...it takes a new way of thinking combined with critical listening to take advantage of this new paradigm......you forget to remember exactly which knobs you grabbed, and by how much, and start to think in terms of frequency, bandwidth, milliseconds, etc.....

IT IS DIFFERENT, and not intuitive at first, until you work with it and make mistakes, which you're bound to do with any board...Practice.......


as far as the diff between digital/analog, yes analog is easier to start with, until you start adding all the outboard gear to it and try to make everything happen, while at the same time make everyone happy. Better to master the awkward ways of digital than to learn new bad habits that will bite you later....

[BrentEvans]

Is learning on a digital board/system going to translate to fluently operating an analogue board?

Forget buying the equipment for a minute, what about the basic functions of knowing which knob does what, how to set/reset and quickly fix mistakes.

That depends on the system. If we're speaking about SAC, then yes, the knowledge will translate - the thing is set up exactly like an analog board, but with more options. The SAC channel strip is very familiar; from the bottom up: Fader, pan, mute, solo, surround pan (ok, so that one doesn't get used much ) Bus assignment, Aux sends, plugin patch (insert), compressor, gate, attenuator & assignment. These are the exact same controls as on an analog board, and manipulated exactly the same way (except with sliders instead of knobs). I have to disagree that it's not intuitive. I think it's equally intuitive to an analog system, and perhaps moreso than an analog system with all the outboard gear. The setup does require a bit of computer proficiency, but that's a different issue.

I can fix issues much more quickly in SAC than on any analog system I've run, because everything is within a few keystrokes or mouse clicks, rather than having to scan over a console and a rack of outboard gear.

For some other digital systems, that don't look or feel like an analog console, your argument holds. Those systems (with maybe the exception of a used O1V) aren't even close to the OP's budget, so it's really a non-issue here. SAC is a special case - it's a high powered digital system that can be implemented very inexpensively.

[mattaudio]

I know I'll get crap from the SAC fanboys on here, but I'd recommend a PreSonus StudioLive 1642. Best console I've ever owned. You can get one new for $1700 now that the initial demand backlog has worn off and dealers are a little more flexible.

[BrentEvans]

I know I'll get crap from the SAC fanboys on here, but I'd recommend a PreSonus StudioLive 1642. Best console I've ever owned. You can get one new for $1700 now that the initial demand backlog has worn off and dealers are a little more flexible.

Wow, never been called a fanboy before.

I guess we get a little excited about the benefits sometimes...

Anyway, you won't get crap. It's a great little mixer, but for the same money...

Just sayin.