Omnitop12 non-spec combat run

[James R]

Well that's a compliment I could definately live with, so when are you building more?

edit: I checked out the pics, i would have had to check my pants also . are those the monitors you retro fitted with piezo arrays?

[Sydney]

The Venue manager suggested I build a bigger system and give him a call.

Well will you? and If so will you add more OT12? OR go to DR's?.

your amp wont burst into flames as well because your running 2 ohms off those lovely AB1100a amps.
Happened to me, amp destroyed beyond recognition.

What the #$@%? ( Umm - running amps hot ain't good )

Compared to the last couple of line array's I heard,

I have not heard all the different ( 24+ and counting ) line array systems...Unfortunately lower cost entry systems ( QSC, Peavey, etc ) are having some success in the market.
IMO. These cheap implementations of a fairly sophisticated concept combined with the lack of knowledge on how to set up correctly is going to provide for bad sound in the future.

The greatest part was the breathy sound of the wooden flute, the timbre of the wooden drum, and the buzzing and subtle wood tones from the marimbas came through

Because you were not doing a rock show, I found this insightful; To my ears the breathy stuff and the subtle signatures of acoustic instruments are the most revealing of a systems performance. With space for attack, sustain and decay of instruments it's easier ( for me anyway ) to gauge.

[screamersusa]

I was happy it was that type of gig as well because it really let me hear these things. It would have been better if I'd had a 500 foot snake to fly over the audience properly so I could have set up foh dead center. I certainly have no intention of going back to my old well known boxes after this show. I do have to fix the vocal issue.

Those are the retrofitted monitors. They are custom clones of the same monitors the Rolling Stones use as I know the guy who had them built here. I'll be putting meldeds in there once the issue's have been sorted out. Eventually I'll go with some wedgies....ooh wedgie

While I plan on building a few more otops, probably 2-3 doubles for monitor usage, I really don't want to get big enough to do this venue on a regular basis. Once you get that big it gets very expensive for crew, insurance, transport, insurance etc, and you are now competing with large established companies that can bury you if the clients don't first.
I wish I could, but my business model is basically, "If it's too big to fit in my van and trailer, I give the gig to someone bigger". I wish I could do it but the reality is that with the economy not doing so good, my current niche is still working.
The big companies are reaching down to this level to get gigs so we have to stay one step ahead of them. It's the wall-mart vs the mom and pop shop scenario. This is where cabinets like Bill's can really shine as you can keep costs down and provide better sound than 90% of the mid size companies while making crappy budgets work. If I do build DR's it wont be untill I move to a midwest state next year.

[jeffbabcock]

I have not heard all the different ( 24+ and counting ) line array systems...Unfortunately lower cost entry systems ( QSC, Peavey, etc ) are having some success in the market.
IMO. These cheap implementations of a fairly sophisticated concept combined with the lack of knowledge on how to set up correctly is going to provide for bad sound in the future.

I would only partially agree with your statement.... having used some of the lower priced line arrays extensively, including the Versarray, I would have to say it competes very well with some much more expensive arrays. Not very SPL efficient, but the V-Ray sounds very good when done right. It is also intended for use in shorter lines where there is less you can screw up compared to a much bigger (longer) J array. I have heard many high-dollar rigs sound less than stellar from poor aiming/deployment and tuning.

That said, there will be those who will try to roll their own presets etc that will screw it up. Same thing happens with every manufacturer that doesn't force "blackbox" DSP. Meyer, L'Acoustics, D&B and Nexo among others require the use of their controllers, ensuring better consistency in the sound of their products.

OTops and DR's are worse off because there are many variables involved in terms of a variety of drivers and piezos and everyone rolling their own DSP settings, or in some cases no DSP at all. Therefore my OTops could potentially sound awful compared to somebody else's or vise versa. Therefore we can take the information about how good the dispertion is and agree on that, but as for how good the boxes actually sound, that will heavily depend on who is running the rig and how well it is tuned.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Therefore we can take the information about how good the dispertion is and agree on that, but as for how good the boxes actually sound, that will heavily depend on who is running the rig and how well it is tuned.

Which is always the case anyway. Some of the worst concerts I've ever heard, as well as some of the best, were through million dollar systems. In many cases they took place on the same night through the same system, with the only difference being who was running the board for the act on the stage. In many cases the opening acts sounded great, while the headliners were the unfortunate victims of the 'suck' control.

[Paul Norman]

OTops and DR's are worse off because there are many variables involved in terms of a variety of drivers and piezos and everyone rolling their own DSP settings, or in some cases no DSP at all. Therefore my OTops could potentially sound awful compared to somebody else's or vise versa. Therefore we can take the information about how good the dispertion is and agree on that, but as for how good the boxes actually sound, that will heavily depend on who is running the rig and how well it is tuned.

Also how the boxes are built. I agree totally!

[screamersusa]

+1 on Jeff Babcock's statement.
I actually like the versarray, but they need lots of power. I think the otop12 is a good alternatitive (understatement).
I HATED the many Vdosc systems I heard untill I finally heard it done right by Eighth Day Sound, WOW!.
It's really all in the engineer and whoever puts the system together, in addition to having enough boxes for the gig.
I think the suck control is related to how high you push the system as I almost always notice amps shutting down in various random locations throughout the line arrays when the volume is pushed too hard.
+1 on Bill's statement: The opening bands usually sound good because the volume is lower so they don't sound as powerfull as the main act. That backfires because they get all the dynamic range instead of the main act.

[Sydney]

I would only partially agree with your statement.

Actually it wasn't a statement - but an opinion ( a statement can cause as much problem as a suggestion )
Partly based upon what was just noted: "Not very SPL efficient" ,"they need lots of power".
Part of what I heard from the QSC were design limitations - not something that would be cured by optimum positioning.
The 8's used do not have a high sensitivity or dynamic range and compressed noticeably.
The cost to QSC of materials to produce a wide-8 array probably represent 20% of street cost, ( probably $300). Out of that budget has to come 12 8's and 6 tweeters, etc. ( So these are obviously not SOTA drivers ).
Their ad copy states "a professional system at breakthrough pricing making line array performance accessible" - so their goal here is to make an entry point line array. The copy also claims 140 degree H dispersion. Maybe at a low frequency, but not at higher frequencies. One of the options is to fly the optional subwoofers ( ignoring boundary loading advantages )
The other category of comments frequently made are:
"that will heavily depend on who is running the rig and how well it is tuned."
"It's really all in the engineer and whoever puts the system together"
So with line arrays: The consensus is: there is high dependency on the human element to set it up right and operate right.
Some manufacturers offer/recommend training seminars for their line array system. Even QSC offers a placement/alignment program. Even with the best equipment, in the best environment, a bad installer/system operator can prevent success.
You can't eliminate the human element - and the suck potential, But if a system requires specific skill/knowledge to operate that also increases the chance of suck, especially if the product is being sold as a low cost high-end touring system.
Realistically how likely are the purchasers of a low cost system going to invest in time/training.
A lot of resources will be have to be spent on robust amplifiers to prevent "amps shutting down in various random locations throughout the line arrays when the volume is pushed too hard."

[jeffbabcock]

+1 on Jeff Babcock's statement.
I actually like the versarray, but they need lots of power. I think the otop12 is a good alternatitive (understatement).

I was actually pretty close to picking up a small 4 box/side Versarray rig, but opted to try the Otop12's instead, not so much for cost reasons but more due to the better efficiency and overall output per cab without always needing a distro to run it. After messing with the Otops in passive configuration I am going to try biamping to see if I can gain an improvement. While I am pleased with the sound, I am coming to similar conclusions as Ron K re the upper mids and HF and think it could benefit from biamping. Don't get me wrong, the Otops are good passive, but not in the same league as some of the truly high end boxes with all of their active processing. It is my belief that biamping will provide better DSP flexibility and should make them VERY competitive with much more expensive commercial arrays. If I can get the Otops to that point then I will start expanding it into a larger rig of up to 8 boxes/side.

I have a small festival coming up early August where the Otops will make their debut. So far I have been too busy to finish getting the boxes painted and ready, but I will spend time tuning the rig with Smaart before it goes out, and I will be posting some of my findings eventually here, hopefully for the benefit of everyone getting the most out of their Otops.

Jeff

[vlad335]

Your stands look familiar.

For the people right on top of the cabs and those directly in front of the stage, the soundfield was very intelligible and full but not as brutal as my expensive bi-amped cabs can be. They take some getting used to as they have a very different sound than most are used to. Ear fatigue at higher volumes is reduced to almost nill due to the smoothness of the boxes and the point source type arrangement. One thing they do not do is overpower the room with that beamy titanium horn sound some people love. The room's acoustics do play a big part in long throw response. They are a very nice fine tool to work with, easy to mix on, and quite transparent.

I agree wholeheartedly. Excellent review! To say I am happy with my Otops would be an understatement.

[vlad335]

I have a small festival coming up early August where the Otops will make their debut. So far I have been too busy to finish getting the boxes painted and ready, but I will spend time tuning the rig with Smaart before it goes out, and I will be posting some of my findings eventually here, hopefully for the benefit of everyone getting the most out of their Otops.

Jeff

Please do. Very much looking forward to it.

[jeffbabcock]

You will see that Ron K has taken some smaart measurements of his Otops. They are posted in Screamersusa's thread in the Otop forum. I think he will be taking measurements with the melded array shortly.