First Outing, Full Band, Titan 48s and omnitop 12s

[brodave2]

3 titans would be an option. I really don't want that many cabs with the small rig. I need to do some testing with voltage, see what the cabs are actually pulling. One thing I might not have mentioned, the room seats 800 but there were only about 150 there. For a full house I would have set up my big rig. This was an excellent test for the BF rig, since with only 150 in attendance, it was more than adequate, but with that big a room, I could see what it would do with that much space. For the type music we were doing, it actually would have been adequate. I can't put into words how well pleased I am with the OT's. When you have enough rig, you can turn something up and it goes up, like lead vocals or lead guitar. When your rig is maxed out, that doesn't happen. With the OT"s in that big a room, I had plenty of headroom, it was a pleasure to mix effortlessly. I could see 4 omnitop 12's on each side covering 2500 people easily for anything less than a full blown rock concert.

[DAVID_L_PERRY]

All in all I think the titans performed well, but they didn't knock my socks off. Playing CD's they sounded incredible, but, as usual, when a band kicks off, it's a different animal. ....

Its not the subs it the kick tuning then.......

If they are working well with CD production that shows that they are working well and also that the placement is ok.

Remember - Garbage in garbage out.....

Placement of subs is not always simple/easy at a lot of venues, but as long as you are aware of the limitations you are less likely to keep cranking them up to compensate for bad placement.

Dave

[mloretitsch]

One thing I might not have mentioned, the room seats 800 but there were only about 150 there.

Gotcha! How high were the cielings? That could be a factor as well.

With the OT"s in that big a room, I had plenty of headroom, it was a pleasure to mix effortlessly. I could see 4 omnitop 12's on each side covering 2500 people easily for anything less than a full blown rock concert.

That's the rig I am aiming for I need to cover 500 outside at rock concert levels. With the Otop12 I won't have to pony up for more power amps either.

It is nice mixing on a rig that actually has headroom isn't it?

[David Robinson]

All in all I think the titans performed well, but they didn't knock my socks off. Playing CD's they sounded incredible, but, as usual, when a band kicks off, it's a different animal. ....

Its not the subs it the kick tuning then.......

If they are working well with CD production that shows that they are working well and also that the placement is ok.

Dave

+1 on the kick thing. I'd try playing with the mic placement and EQ a little.

[hclague]

Hi Dave

Ok, so here's the rub. Why do all these folks spend so much time and money on programs like smaart to time align all the components of their sound system. It would be impossible to time align a system with the mains on either side of the stage and the subs over in the corner.

In order to correctly time align two speaker sources with adjacent band passes through crossover, the two sources must be less than 1/4 wave length of the crossover frequency apart. Therefore in most concert setups where the Hi/Mid boxes are separated from the subs. Alignment through crossover is not used. Some system techs will however align for arrival at a certain area in the listening audience.

Hal

[brodave2]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N05/2207562611/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N0 ... otostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N0 ... otostream/

[mloretitsch]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N05/2207562611/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N0 ... otostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7655072@N0 ... otostream/

Gotcha...high ceilings. Even so...that should have provided a decent amount of oomph. Oh well!

Checked out your photostream...how do you like the LS9? The guy I work for just bought one, but I haven't worked on it yet. I think the LS9 went to the b-rig..the M7 is on the a-rig. B rig is two srx-725 per side and 2 sb-1000 per side. A rig is 4 martin w3c per side and 6 sb1000 per side. The horn loaded Martin boxes are old tech now, but I like how they sound.

More importantly...are the gains still rotary pots on the LS9 or are they recallable motorized jobs? I have to recommend a mixer to a church this summer and I think the LS9 might fit the bill if it's got 'total recall' ability. Movie pun intended there....

Thanks,
-Matt

[brodave2]

The LS9 is absolutely TOTAL recall. There is one glitch, although it's not a problem, there is a zipper effect when you adjust the gain. If you adjust the gain with input on a channel, you can hear it "click" up. If you adjust it when that channel is silent, it makes no noise. It stutters the input when adjusted. Like I said, it's no problem, just something that seems odd the first time you hear it. One thing I like, when you adjust the aux sends, the guys onstage hear the stuttering as you up the aux send. I think that works out well because they can tell instantly that you have changed something. Usually if they want the monitors up a bit, you may go 2 clicks and then they want less, so it's back down one. I think it makes things work better. The gain is recallable, but I don't think it is motorized, I'm not sure how they did it, but it works very well. The gain has a very wide range. It doesn't need a pad, because you can turn the gain WAY down. I have no complaints whatsoever about the LS9.

[DAVID_L_PERRY]

Playing CD's they sounded incredible, but, as usual, when a band kicks off, it's a different animal. ....

Its not the subs it the kick tuning then.......

Dave

And once more for clarity in case you missed it

[brodave2]

Its not the subs it the kick tuning then.......

I know that kick tuning is critical, I've been doing this a long time. I was referring to the fact that when you listen to a system with a cd playing it can sound great, and then when you try to do a live band, you find you don't have enough power. I've done gigs where 2 bands would play the same drum kit, and the kick would sound great with one band and crappy with the other. The only thing that changed was the drummer. That makes a difference also, how hard the drummer hits the kick. I know that you can only polish a turd just so much. This gig I let the drummer use his own mics. The kick mic was a beta52 just like mine, but his mic stand wouldn't allow the mic to get up inside the drum, so that was a problem also. I didn't want to go back out in the rain and open up my trailer to get my kick mic stand. One thing I did notice that was a positive, without the harmonics of front loaded subs, I could hear the kick in the mains. With my double 18's the kick sounds like it is all coming out of the subs. Another situation where too little power becomes readily evident is when folks do their first outside job. They are used to the room reflections and the extra "feel" that comes with that, that is not there outside, and they overdrive their system trying to re-create that. I did that 20 years ago, and I've seen others since learn the same lesson the same way. It is frustrating to work a band with a lousy kick, knowing the beefy kick your rig will do, but you can't get there because of the lousy drum. I do know the difference between a lousy drum and not enough power. With the rig set up the way I had it Friday night, it wasn't as much power as I wanted. I'm going to work on sub placement and I'm going to use a larger amp on my subs next time, probably have one titan on each side of a PLX3402 instead of 2402.

[gdougherty]

I'm going to use a larger amp on my subs next time, probably have one titan on each side of a PLX3402 instead of 2402.

And again, you had enough power, you didn't have the subs wired correctly. The T48 makes the minimum impedance of the 3015LF 8ohms, so the minimum impedance in parallel will be 4ohms and your 2402 will handle it just fine even if you're one who worries about the minimum rather than nominal impedance. Don't bother with a bigger amp, just wire them up correctly. I've run my pair just fine in testing outdoors with just a 1202 in bridge mono.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If the recorded kick was fine and live wasn't then there is no issue with the subs, there is an issue with the live kick signal. There are two ways in which the recorded kick can be different than live. One is EQ, the other is compression, and that's where the changes need to be made. BTW, in the studio more often than not the kick is a triggered drum synth, as it's a lot easier to get the desired tone and compression using a synth drum track than a mic'd drum.

[mloretitsch]

I'm going to use a larger amp on my subs next time, probably have one titan on each side of a PLX3402 instead of 2402.

And again, you had enough power, you didn't have the subs wired correctly. The T48 makes the minimum impedance of the 3015LF 8ohms, so the minimum impedance in parallel will be 4ohms and your 2402 will handle it just fine even if you're one who worries about the minimum rather than nominal impedance. Don't bother with a bigger amp, just wire them up correctly. I've run my pair just fine in testing outdoors with just a 1202 in bridge mono.

Some of us prefer to not bridge the amps. I believe it shortens their life span, and in the case of the old microtech 1200's i can assure you that it DOES shorten their life span. Subjectively I think an amp run stereo at 4 or 8 ohms sounds better as well.

I did a lot of bar gigs to pay for those powerlights....I treat them kindly

-Matt

[chopperguy99]

I had the EXACT same problem with my titans. I blamed an old kick mic, but I now think it is the drum. Recorded kick pounded. Sounded really strong and tight. Live kick sounded like a smack instead of a thump.

[Mark Coward]

I'm going to use a larger amp on my subs next time, probably have one titan on each side of a PLX3402 instead of 2402.

And again, you had enough power, you didn't have the subs wired correctly. The T48 makes the minimum impedance of the 3015LF 8ohms, so the minimum impedance in parallel will be 4ohms and your 2402 will handle it just fine even if you're one who worries about the minimum rather than nominal impedance. Don't bother with a bigger amp, just wire them up correctly. I've run my pair just fine in testing outdoors with just a 1202 in bridge mono.

I don't know where you get that he did not have them wired correctly? In his first post:

Sub power is a QSC PLX 2402, one sub on each side.

As long as I am running the system, I have no problem with bridging an amp, I'm just careful to set a limiter. I'd rather have too much power available, I know better than to try and run it into the red. If you limit the output, the amp is not going to be working too hard.

When I built the first pair of T30's loaded with Magnum 12's, I used them at an outdoor gig. One on each side of the 50' stage. I ran a 2400w amp bridged to both of them. While I couldn't get a "monster" kick sound, it was quite solid and easily kept up with the four Peavey SP2 tops.

What surprised me was when I walked around this large area, the bottom end was quite good even 300 yards away - it almost sounded better the farther away you got.