Endfire v-plates

[mtglass]

Good day,

I think digital is the correct advice. I also encourage people that have analog to use it and really figure out what's possible. All those analog skills definitely translate to digital. (I have run both, and analog is what I have right now.)

I ran the subs exactly as Seth prescribed: big thank you! It dropped the stage volume a ton. I'm sorry I was not able to do any measurements: 45 minutes from closing the street to making notes made it a scramble.

A pair of Titans in a cardoid configuration work marvelously. Very clean sound and a lot more sub out front than behind. The sound guy thought it was about 100dB at his position, and the Titan's were just idling. I wish he had measured it. On stage it was very easy to communicate without raising your voice.

More technically, the Titan 48s ended up about 10' in front of the stage, and 4' 6" from face to face. The rear sub was inverted and delayed 4mS as recommended. The subs were placed back to back, so that's a 6"-ish gap between the cabinets which works well to keep foot traffic away. The drummer and bass player needed a little more umph on stage, it was pretty quiet at their 15' behind-the-subs position. I have a wedgehorn 10 in the queue to see if it will solve bass and drummer needs.

With the drop in stage volume, there was no issue amplifying any of the drum mics.

Overall a big improvement in sound, thank you all for helping out.

[Seth]

That's great news! Thanks for the gig report! I'm really happy it worked out well for you guys. Awesome.

[Tom Smit]

[T_Gowan]

"Too much Bass" on stage is what I hear so often. Is this workable for a guy with a small system like mine, 2 subs. Is the output out front diminished by the phase change. I know there must be some some compromise for this setup but how much?

[T_Gowan]

By placing back to back are you already inverting phase.

[Seth]

By placing back to back are you already inverting phase.

No. It kinda makes sense that it would, but it doesn't. Subs create an omni directional pressure wave. No matter which direction it's facing, cone movement outward is cone movement outward and it creates the positive half of the pressure wave. The spacing, inversion, and delay all work together so as the sound waves propagate outward, from the back of the array the sound waves are 180 out of phase and create a cancellation, yet in the audience side of the array the soundwaves sum and provide essentially the same 6dB you get when placing a second cab side by side.

"Too much Bass" on stage is what I hear so often. Is this workable for a guy with a small system like mine, 2 subs. Is the output out front diminished by the phase change. I know there must be some some compromise for this setup but how much?

Out front, you'd pretty much only lose the benefits of using a v-plate. Two subs, no problem, give it a try and let us know how it goes. Indoors is a crap shoot, outdoors it should work very well with little downside, other than what's been said in this thread... not enough bass on stage.

[T_Gowan]

So I would guess decreasing the rear sub would increase low end on stage and increasing rear sub would decrease sub level on stage? So you could tune it to some degree?

[Seth]

So I would guess decreasing the rear sub would increase low end on stage and increasing rear sub would decrease sub level on stage? So you could tune it to some degree?

Hmm. I never considered that. Brilliant thought, if you ask me. Makes sense that decreasing the rear sub level would decrease the cancellation behind and also decrease the summation out front. I think, and I'm just running the scenario through my mind... I think turning the rear sub up (or conversely the front sub down) would essentially have the same effect.

Great thinking, Tom!

"Too much Bass" on stage is what I hear so often...

Another way to mitigate this complaint is to put the main mix through some side fill speakers to fill in the frequencies that don't spill from the mains. It doesn't reduce the bass, but does balance the sound and creates a perception change. Though, side fills can also come with additional risk of feedback if not managed well.

My Dad uses IEM's and the last two shows we did, he initially complained about the bass. I put a monitor on stage and his complaints disappeared.

[T_Gowan]

Just got this picture in my head. The 2 subs are just an expanding and contacting ball. But if one side of the ball collapses as the other side expands then the magic happens?

[Seth]

Just got this picture in my head. The 2 subs are just an expanding and contacting ball. But if one side of the ball collapses as the other side expands then the magic happens?

Pretty close. Not entirely telling without the pressure waves traveling over a distance and visualizing how they interact with each other at any particular listening position at a venue, but I'd say it's not an unreasonable visualization. Close enough to get to the next ah hah.