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Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:57 pm
by Bruce Weldy
Grant Bunter wrote:It's looks like you found "the guy" for the job at least.
You'll always know what happened, but here's hoping you are satified with the end result.
I really hope it goes well for you Bruce...
Thanks Grant. I'm sure it will be ok.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:06 am
by Bruce Weldy
byacey wrote:Bruce Weldy wrote:
He will be re-attaching the headstock with titebond. He's done a bunch of these and is recognized as the guy to use.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but if it was me, I would be doing more research into the glue issue. I can tell you from first hand experience PVA glues are not that permanent / stable long term, despite what anyone tells you.
You may be right, but he isn't some kid working in a music store.
This guy is 60 years old and this is how he makes his living.....and has been for a few decades. I'm trusting that the fact that he's done a bunch of this particular repair.....that he knows how to do it.
If it comes apart in another 40 years, my kids can deal with it - cause, I'll have already come apart myself.
I do miss it though. We laid down some more tracks tonight and I was doing scratch tracks with the Tele and it just ain't the same.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:05 am
by byacey
Let's hope you're in better shape in 40 years time. I hope the guitar repair works out well.
I know what it's like not having the instrument you want at hand. It's really amazing how minute differences in the neck shape, fret height, setup, etc. can create the difference between comfortable and foreign.
Most people that try my bass comment on the setup, usually with things like"It almost plays itself." I figure I need all the help I can get without having to struggle with strings too high, fret buzz, etc.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 4:40 am
by wounded horse
I had a nice acoustic headstock repaired with the yellow titebond glue and it's still good 12 years later.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:15 am
by byacey
Don't ever leave it in a warm car in the summer; it'll let go.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:02 pm
by sine143
I'm sure you may have real wood experience, with this... but so do I (albeit very amatuer). I learned over at MIMF when building my first electric guitars (I'll see if I can dig up some pictures).
I do have to correct my previous post though use ORIGINAL TITEBOND, not Titebond ii.
heres a copy from their FAQ:
Q. What's the best glue?
A. There's no single "best" glue, but there are several that have proven themselves over the years, and in the case of hide glue, over centuries. Our recommendations are BRAND-NAME/PRODUCT SPECIFIC where applicable. Not all glues are created equal so don't assume that any glue readily available to you is good enough for your instrument - different formulations greatly affect quality, especially with yellow glues and epoxies. Some glues have a shelf-life and will expire, yellow glues especially should be fresh. Here's a quick guide to the strengths and weaknesses of the most popular glues. Note that there's a continuing emphasis on disassembly. For electric guitars, set necks (glued-in), as found on most Gibsons, are often disassembled for repair, replacement, or refinishing. Fingerboards need to be removed in order to replace broken truss rods or just because they're worn out. Acoustic guitars also require neck removal and fingerboard replacement, but repairs may require removal of the bridge, top, or back of a guitar as well. Some future repair person will either bless you or curse you based on your choice of glues.
GLUE PRO CON
Hide glue Traditional instrument builders' choice. Very strong, can be disassembled for repair. Invisible joints with good woodworking technique. Dry granules must be mixed with water, heated, then kept at a steady temperature. There is a learning curve.
Premixed liquid hide glue Convenient Weaker than fresh-mixed hide glue. Not recommended for lutherie.
Titebond Original
Elmer's Probond Yellow Glue
(PVA, Aliphatic Resin glue) Convenient, strong, easy to use over a wide range of temperatures More difficult to disassemble/repair than hide glue. Oily/resinous woods (most tropicals) may require special preparation. Some joints, such as neck scarf joints, may creep over time, one year shelf life.
Titebond II, Titebond III Waterproof (II), longer open time (III) Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard.
Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Glue Low chilling temperature Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard.
Plastic Resin/Urea Formaldehyde/UF
Cascamite seems to be the most popular brand Strong bond, unlimited shelf life of powder, dries hard. Excellent for lamination. Light tan color may show line when joining light woods. Powder is an irritant/sensitizer. Difficult to disassemble.
Epoxy Strong bonds, can be used clear or with fillers/wood flour. Best for joining dissimilar materials such as wood and metal, works well on oily tropical woods. May break down under heat. Some epoxies are waxy, potentially deadening instrument resonance.
Polyurethane glue ("Gorilla" is the most readily available brand but our members don't like it, they prefer "Probond.") Convenient, strong. Gap-filling properties. Stains skin, gap-filling foam is weak. Disassembly is difficult. Limited shelf life.
Cyanoacrylate/CA/Krazy/Super glue Very fast bonding, dries hard and clear. Available in various consistencies. Good for strengthening porous woods. Good for repairing some clear finishes. Low shear strength. Becomes brittle and releases under heat. May destroy some finishes. Reacts with some metals. Easily attaches fingers to objects under construction and to one another. Fumes are an eye irritant.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:42 pm
by byacey
It's the problem of creep mentioned in the text you posted regarding Titebond; this is exacerbated with heat and constant tension on the glue joint.
I agree with the prepared liquid hide glue. Apparently they put formaldehyde into the glue which allows it to break down after a number of years.
Some epoxies exhibit creep and softening when exposed to heat, but the G2 product I mentioned is very stable and extremely strong. I built my first bass guitar in 1987 using this glue, and nothing has moved on it, despite being knocked over more than once, and exposed to temperature extremes from -40C to +40C in the back of a truck year after year. I've used it on subsequent instruments since then, all without any problems.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:52 pm
by sine143
Beautiful bass. Notice creep isnt noted with titebond original
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:56 pm
by Rune Bivrin
byacey wrote:It's the problem of creep mentioned in the text you posted regarding Titebond; this is exacerbated with heat and constant tension on the glue joint.
I agree with the prepared liquid hide glue. Apparently they put formaldehyde into the glue which allows it to break down after a number of years.
Some epoxies exhibit creep and softening when exposed to heat, but the G2 product I mentioned is very stable and extremely strong. I built my first bass guitar in 1987 using this glue, and nothing has moved on it, despite being knocked over more than once, and exposed to temperature extremes from -40C to +40C in the back of a truck year after year. I've used it on subsequent instruments since then, all without any problems.
A little off topic: That's a gorgeous bass, but there appears to be something funny going on with fret spacing from fret 16, or is that just my eyes?
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:07 pm
by byacey
I think you may have mis-read it. Titebond and Elmers Probond are examples of PVA type glue, which they describe the properties of, below the examples.
Thanks for the compliment on the bass. It was the first guitar that I made, although I built quite a few violins (using hide glue) before embarking on that project. I used Cocobolo for everything. The body core is made up of about 16 pieces of Cocobolo scraps that I laminated together, and then faced over with 1/4 inch thick pieces of Cocobolo on the front and back. I figured the core inside was a good place as any to use up my scrap cuttings.
The neck is one piece without a separate fret board; I simply put a radius on the front and installed the frets into the surface. The surface is still almost like new after years of playing. The truss rod was installed into a channel routed into the back side of the neck, and filled with a strip of maple for contrast.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:15 pm
by byacey
Rune Bivrin wrote:
A little off topic: That's a gorgeous bass, but there appears to be something funny going on with fret spacing from fret 16, or is that just my eyes?
Good eye, and a blatant foul-up on my part.
The fretting jig I built slipped unnoticed while I was cutting the fret slots, and that particular fret was misplaced. At the time I thought I might plane it flat and install a separate fretboard to correct the error, but I figured I would use it as-is for awhile and see if it was worth the effort to re-do. After playing it for some time, I found that I rarely played up there in the genres of music I was playing, so I just left it. Later instruments I always took great pains not to allow that to happen again.
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 3:30 pm
by miked
First I'm seeing of this, Bruce. Sorry to see this happened. You're taking it to the right guy though.
Best of luck with the repair!!!
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:07 am
by Harley
Sorry to hear that Bruce and hope it gets fixed as you expect it.
Could be a good time to take up Bass though...
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:57 am
by sine143
the guitar on the left was my firstbuild . All PVA (granted the kneck is one piece plus freboard), 4 years (and many a hot car later) and its still gettin it. (granted the kneck is bolt on).
Re: Somebody shoot me
Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:06 am
by Bruce Weldy
Harley wrote:Sorry to hear that Bruce and hope it gets fixed as you expect it.
Could be a good time to take up Bass though...
Considering that anyone who would do something like this to their guitar is a bonehead - I'd say I certainly have the right tools to play bass.