First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

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njolliffe
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#16 Post by njolliffe »

Hi Guys,

I'm a bit bummed as there is still no sign of these stupid Tee Nuts. This means the build has kinda slowed for now whilst I wait for them to arrive. Surely they must be delivered tomorrow right.....?
osse wrote:Also, I'm amazed that you chose to build the AT based on that video, as it gives very little justice to the design... the real thing will be much better than what was be caught on that camera!
The video sounded pretty awesome so I figured the real thing must be much better like you say. It obviously wasn't just that video that convinced me, it was this forum along with the helpful community and a lot of happy reviews for both the AT and other speakers that persuaded me to take the plunge and make one. I found the build threads were pretty motivating too, its pretty awesome being able to follow someones project from start to finish.
88h88 wrote:For the record I've used that 5 minute PL before and it works. However it's a complete arse on bigger speakers such as tubas/titans as the panels are bigger and more of a faff to get into place
I am starting to realise the amount of effort the larger cabs must take to get right. I was just lining up panel 2 against 1 and even on such a small panel/interaction warp can still be seen. I can definitely see why some of the larger and more complicated designs would be a nightmare with the 5 min stuff.




Anyways, despite the nuts not arriving I have been trying to keep busy and decided to mark up all the braces. I don't think I will cut them just yet as it's probably safer to confirm brace sizes once the panels are in place. I've heard these require a bit of fettling to fit anyways so there's no point cutting them too precisely.

I have also cut out the flanges for the access cover.
I'm planning on fitting these once panel 2, 3 and 4 are attached rather than at the end of the build as there will be a bit more room etc. Is there any reason to wait until the end to fit these?
ryan222h wrote:Check the voltage output of it when bridged at max output, without speakers hooked up
I managed to test the amp as described above. I ran a 60hz sine wave into the amp with no speakers/sub attached and cranked the amp up to max vol (35). The output was 49/50V.
This was with the head unit sub settings at 0 though and as this can go up to +15 I expect the amp could have an even higher output.

I also checked the voltage when listening to general music with my current system and at the loudest setting (20 on HU) I was hitting about 19/20V.



I took the amp off the parcel shelf and happy days it had a label on it :D
20130130_214249.jpg
Looks like the output is rated for 4 ohms.
ryan222h wrote:If its rated 4 ohms per channel then maybe stick with the one channel to the AT.
Pretty self explanatory, I will be running it of just the one channel for now to be safe.

I also had a fiddle with the level dial.
20130130_213859.jpg
Played a 100hz sine through it at about HU volume 9/10 and turned the dial.
At the min setting the voltmeter read 0.1v.
At the max it read 3.4V.

I'm still not convinced what this means. I was thinking it must be a 'gain' type dial but am I right in thinking it could be a variable X-over that is setting the cutoff lower than 100hz thus reducing the voltage? Surely if this was a gain dial then even at the minimum setting there would still be some output not 0.1v?

Finally some photos of inside my current sub and some comparison photos against a card mock up of the AT.
20130130_231334.jpg
20130130_232929.jpg
20130130_232949.jpg
The driver in the old sub is old Kenwood KFC-W2500. Specs below (stolen from http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofe ... at-do.html).

10" woofer; Kenwood KFC-W2500, Peak Power 360W.

Fs = 28hz
Vas(FT^3) = 2.67
Vas(m^3) = 74.19 (surely this can't be right as 74 meters cubed = 74000 liters)
Vas(L) = 75 (Using the FT^3 value)
QMs = 11.228
Qes = 0.337
Qts = 0.327
Pmax = 360
Re = 3.51
Xmax = 21.31
Sensitivity(db@1w/1m) = 91

Its a shame the Vas is so big, could probably have used it in the AT otherwise.

You can probably guess my next question. This will be surplus to requirements once the AT is finished, you recon I could use it for any other project like a TT?

Thanks for reading and apologies for deviating from purely 'build thread' content.
1x 16" AT (gto804)
2x 9 Driver TLAH's

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1648
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#17 Post by CoronaOperator »

njolliffe wrote:I also had a fiddle with the level dial.
20130130_213859.jpg
Played a 100hz sine through it at about HU volume 9/10 and turned the dial.
At the min setting the voltmeter read 0.1v.
At the max it read 3.4V.

I'm still not convinced what this means. I was thinking it must be a 'gain' type dial but am I right in thinking it could be a variable X-over that is setting the cutoff lower than 100hz thus reducing the voltage? Surely if this was a gain dial then even at the minimum setting there would still be some output not 0.1v?
That level dial is most certainly a gain dial. The amplifier would be near useless without it. It is used to match the output of the headunit to the input of the amp.

If you want to find out at what freqency the amplifier is crossing over at play ~40hz signal thru the amplifier with the low-pass engaged and turn up/down the level until you read 10v at the outputs. Now raise the frequency without altering the levels until the voltmeter reads ~7.01v . The frequency that causes the voltage to drop to that level is where you are -3dB down or about the crossover frequency.
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Gregory East
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:56 pm

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#18 Post by Gregory East »

njolliffe wrote:
ryan222h wrote:Check the voltage output of it when bridged at max output, without speakers hooked up
I managed to test the amp as described above. I ran a 60hz sine wave into the amp with no speakers/sub attached and cranked the amp up to max vol (35). The output was 49/50V.
This was with the head unit sub settings at 0 though and as this can go up to +15 I expect the amp could have an even higher output.

I also checked the voltage when listening to general music with my current system and at the loudest setting (20 on HU) I was hitting about 19/20V.



I took the amp off the parcel shelf and happy days it had a label on it :D
20130130_214249.jpg
Looks like the output is rated for 4 ohms.
ryan222h wrote:If its rated 4 ohms per channel then maybe stick with the one channel to the AT.
Pretty self explanatory, I will be running it of just the one channel for now to be safe.

I also had a fiddle with the level dial.
20130130_213859.jpg
Played a 100hz sine through it at about HU volume 9/10 and turned the dial.
At the min setting the voltmeter read 0.1v.
At the max it read 3.4V.

I'm still not convinced what this means. I was thinking it must be a 'gain' type dial but am I right in thinking it could be a variable X-over that is setting the cutoff lower than 100hz thus reducing the voltage? Surely if this was a gain dial then even at the minimum setting there would still be some output not 0.1v?
.
I'm confused how many amps you have in play at any one time. It looks like your 100hz signal got tangled up in a crossover, either head unit or the sub amp with the bit I highlighted. Surely that should have read voltage similar to your previous 60hz test?

The amp may be spec'd to run either speaker level input from another amp or line input
BAT10, Bad Auto Tuba. Reverse folded TAT to fit JBL 1014D, 350W driver, voltage limit unknown.

Gregory East
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:56 pm

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#19 Post by Gregory East »

BTW, your AT is going to bury that old sub. :clap:
BAT10, Bad Auto Tuba. Reverse folded TAT to fit JBL 1014D, 350W driver, voltage limit unknown.

Gregory East
Posts: 3495
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:56 pm

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#20 Post by Gregory East »

Another btw, your ply seems to have a hell of a lot of thin plies, so much that the exterior layers must qualify as veneers. It will probably be ok but be aware that veneered ply makes a very much less strong box than regular ply.
BAT10, Bad Auto Tuba. Reverse folded TAT to fit JBL 1014D, 350W driver, voltage limit unknown.

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Radian
Posts: 2032
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#21 Post by Radian »

That amp will work for the interim (it will make bass), but I recommend to start searching for something with an adjustable low-pass filter to get your AT sounding its best.

It doesn't need to be ultra fancy, just something with a little more features than the one you've got on-hand.
Good food, good people, good times.

4 - AT
1 - TT
1 - THT Slim
2 - SLA Pro 4x6 Alphalite

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Chris_Allen
Posts: 3358
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:43 pm
Location: Huddersfield, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#22 Post by Chris_Allen »

Gregory East wrote:Another btw, your ply seems to have a hell of a lot of thin plies, so much that the exterior layers must qualify as veneers. It will probably be ok but be aware that veneered ply makes a very much less strong box than regular ply.
I'm not so sure, looks like really nice birch to me.
Built:
6xDR200, 2xT39, 2xT48, 2xJack110, 1xOmni10.5, 1xAutotuba, 1xT18, 1xSLA Pro, 1xW8, 1xW10

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AntonZ
Posts: 2687
Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 6:00 am
Location: NL

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#23 Post by AntonZ »

Chris_Allen wrote:I'm not so sure, looks like really nice birch to me.
+1
Some great looking birch ply there.

njolliffe
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#24 Post by njolliffe »

Hello again,

Gregory, I hope this Birch is the right stuff as I paid enough for it to be the premium quality version. I think looking at the couple of comments its the correct stuff, it has 9 layers of equal thickness as Bill recommends. Also I have yet to find any voids and the few plugs on one of the sides seem pretty neat and of high quality.
Also I realise in this section where I mention Amp I meant Headunit which may have been some cause of confusion.
njolliffe wrote: I ran a 60hz sine wave into the amp with no speakers/sub attached and cranked theAmp up to max vol (35). The output was 49/50V.
To clarify I have one amp powering the Sub and the 4 speakers are running off the HU (internal amp). Sorry for the confusion.


Also thanks Corona for the tip on finding the crossover point, I plan on doing this when I have some time/can open my boot as the lock is playing up and I can't get in lol. :(

Radian, I agree that my current amp is probably a stop gap and whilst producing some form of bass, I will need to replace it in the near future to get the most out of the AT and my sound system.


As for the main build it's probably of little surprise to know that there is still no sign of the nuts. I got fed up and ordered some more from a different seller who has assured me they have been posted and I can expect them early this week. Such an annoying setback. I figured if both lots of nuts do turn up, I can use some in the access cover.

I mentioned last post that I had started the flanges for the access cover. Well on measuring I have realised it will be a squeeze to fit the JBL through. Guess a little notch/sanding will fix this though.
Bit tight
Bit tight

So yeah no progress to report on the AT unfortunately.

However, I was feeling bad about not having anything interesting to show you lot. When dismantling my card mock up I had a crazy idea, one which I'm sure I wouldn't of had if I was a BFM Cab expert and an idea that some of you 'purists' may hate me for. So please, when looking at the photos below, know that I was doing this for fun and not expecting it to work/perform well.

So yeah, with that said, may I present the build of a mini 2.1 AT, 8" ext width.

I have an Altec lansing VS2621 2.1 system for my PC. It has a 4" sub for the bass which is half the size of the recommended 8" driver. I figure half everything and all will be gravy right? :D

I used a high quality double walled cardboard which has a higher rigidity than the single walled. Note the cheaper stuff has a far lower level of stiffness and therefore your cab is more susceptible to panel flex.
Also you need to use a quality craft knife to cut out the panels. Scissors crush the card and negate the stiffening properties offered by the corrugation.

Marking up Side 1.
20130131_194308.jpg
Pan 1 attached. Access cover cut out.
Access Cover cut and Pan 1 attached
Access Cover cut and Pan 1 attached
Tee Nuts are not an option for Cardboard so I used some double sided tape to mount the driver. Note, I used a 'pinch' technique to produce the 45deg angle on the baffle to ensure cone clearance. This was obviously confirmed with a test signal run through the sub.
20130131_202721.jpg
A seal was ensured by applying masking tape generously.
20130131_203234.jpg
Photos and build continues in next post.
1x 16" AT (gto804)
2x 9 Driver TLAH's

njolliffe
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#25 Post by njolliffe »

Mini AT 9" Continued.

Panels 2, 3 and 4 fixed in place.
20130131_205453.jpg
Note the masking tape used to help improve the seal between panels. Also a stronger joint is achieved by taping each edge of a panel before fitting.

First brace going in. In hindsight I should have used 2 braces to further reduce panel flex.
20130131_211524.jpg
Panels 5,6,7 attached.
20130131_215529.jpg
Panel 8 and the two remaining braces attached.
20130131_222030.jpg
Final panel attached awaiting the side.
20130131_223943.jpg

Continued next post...
1x 16" AT (gto804)
2x 9 Driver TLAH's

njolliffe
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#26 Post by njolliffe »

Final side taped up. Used double sided on the panels and the side to ensure a good 'stick'/seal.
20130131_223947.jpg
Last side attached.
20130131_224409.jpg
Front view
20130131_224415.jpg
I have attached the access cover, you can just see it in the last photo.

View next to old sub.
20130131_232146.jpg
I did the old 'crawl' method and decided best place for it was corner loaded sat on my seat behind my desk. The weights are to try and improve the seal between the side and internal panels.
20130201_180806.jpg
So there you go, finished at least one AT Haha lol.
Was a good few hours work and in fairness it doesn't actually sound too bad. At low/medium volumes it copes quite well. At higher volumes the card can't take the pressure and flexes lots. You can hear this hurts the sub and it makes a similar distorted noise to when its in the intended enclosure supplied with the speakers. The cabinet also vibrates lots and those weights were all thrown off it during one bass heavy scene during a film. I expect that it will sound worse and worse as time goes by and the tape peels/fails so I will have to put it back in its proper enclosure before too long.
I was hoping to post a video but my phone mic is crap.

Overall I am pretty impressed with the performance, considering its made from card. Its certainly got my expectations up for the actual AT and I'm itching to crack on with it.
1x 16" AT (gto804)
2x 9 Driver TLAH's

bassmonster
Posts: 1384
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:23 am

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#27 Post by bassmonster »

What is this?!?! :loler: :loler: :loler: That is officially the most ghetto thing I've ever seen! :lol: Love it! Hey, if it works, it works. This really brings a new meaning to "cardboard mock-up". This is great. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Ryan A
Posts: 867
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:19 am
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#28 Post by Ryan A »

I gotta say I've never heard of anyone using cardboard to build an actual sub box...and to be honest its probably the worst material you could build one from. :wall: I suppose, if you've got nothing better to do...

Let's hope Bill doesn't keel over when he sees this!

67baja
Posts: 931
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:10 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#29 Post by 67baja »

you know if you could take the side off and coat all the cardboard with fiberglass resin, it would really stiffen it up! You could put some fiberglass fibers in there too to make it even more ridgid. It is common practice when fiberglassing to just 'glass pieces of cardboard in panels to give them more ridgidity.

In all seriousness, that would probably make that a "real" box.
2 THTs, 2 TLAH, SLA curved, 1 8-AT, 1 AT JBL 1002D, 4 Otop12s, Jack 12, TT with Eminence 10", 2 SLAs, 1 T30 slim, 2 T30s (2-10" each), SLA Pros, TrT.

njolliffe
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:52 pm
Location: Hampshire, UK

Re: First Build - A Single JBL 804 16" AutoTuba

#30 Post by njolliffe »

bassmonster wrote:What is this?!?! :loler: :loler: :loler:


:lol: I kinda expected this type of reply, glad it made you smile.

It doesn't actually sound too bad. Put it this way I haven't removed the speaker and put it back in the original enclosure yet.
ryan222h wrote: its probably the worst material you could build one from
Too true. No rigidity to resist the pressure. Only plus side is its cheap/free. I recon the only cost so far must be about a couple of quid for the tape.

I love the fact that I made this to kill some time/for a bit of a laugh and yet i'm getting some serious replies on how to improve it.
67baja wrote: coat all the cardboard with fiberglass resin, it would really stiffen it up!
This is a pretty awesome idea though, would probably work quite well. The side could be taken off with little effort, the only problem would be improving the driver mounting as the tape will fail at some point.

I really want to compare the two somehow. (Card AT vs original enclosure) I will have to browse the forum for peoples advice on Mics/recording software as it will be useful for the real AT anyways.
ryan222h wrote:Let's hope Bill doesn't keel over when he sees this!
+1 for my sake. If you guys don't hear from me, its safe to assume my account has been banned from this forum.....
1x 16" AT (gto804)
2x 9 Driver TLAH's

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