Bison Pu Max Timber, liquid polyurethane adhesive

[Rune Bivrin]

First this

It has very little boning strength.

Then this

Expanding 100% polyurethane is an adhesive which achieves its strongest bond through compression ( claps or screws ) and moisture during the curing process.

Freud would have a field day with you, Harley...

[vann]

Expanding 100% polyurethane is an adhesive which achieves its strongest bond through compression ( claps or screws ) and moisture during the curing process. Because it expands, it fills any small gaps so it acts like a gap filler for those situations.

So if the adhesive is not 100% polyurethane it means it's not as much as expanding? Like 75% polyurethane has like 75% of the "100% polyurethane" expanding properties? I wish, but I guess it's not that simple...

Harley, you said this Bison stuff you used is too liquid, to honey like? So I guess too much of the adhesive gets squeezed out of joints?
What if I use both dadoes and battens? (by battens I mean something like this)
(though I'm not sure if it is possible to use both dadoes and battens with the last (2nd) side of the cabinet...)

[N.Webber]

vann,

In my corner of the world I also can’t obtain PL but I have had good results with another Bison product that I feel is a very close substitute to the PL glue.
It is the "Montage Kit Original" http://www.bison.nl/nl-nl/producten/640 ... -original/.



This PU glue expands very little compared to how the PL is described, but all other properties are great and really suit the type of builds discussed here.
I recommend you try to obtain a tube and give it a try. Don't miss the "Original" word on the label as there are similar Montage Kit glues that are actually different types.

In my builds I regularly use the Montage Kit as well as regular woodworking glue (Elmer's) as best suits the situation.

[vann]

OMG tnx mate,

now I'm almost sure I've seen that exact product in local stores. Not sure about that "ORIGINAL" label though. I even think I've been through it's instructions (as with any adhesive I've laid my hands in stores). Yet it says it's a Montage Kit (which I guess still means it's adhesive). Are you sure it's based on polyurethane, e.g. it's expanding / gap filling type od adhesive?
But I bet it is, since you've got good results with it...

As a side note, what type of situations do you use the regular woodworking glue for?
(Asking since I'm also starting another project, pair of big floorstanders)

[vann]

I have just been through the photos I've made in said stores , few days ago. (attaching a pair of them bellow)
I guess it's the same product we are talking about.

I guess if you say it has good gap filling properties I should hurry to switch my current glue with a pair of those montage kits. (good thing I haven't opened it to test it)

[bzb]

If Mister Webber says it's good to go, you listen to him

[Harley]

... I feel is a very close substitute to the PL glue.
It is the "Montage Kit Original"....This PU glue expands very little compared to how the PL is described, but all other properties are great and really suit the type of builds discussed here.)

So long as it's an Expanding 100% polyurethane, then it's the same stuff as PL, but as you point out, doesn't ooze out as much. It will have the same strength and exhibit the same qualities. PL is brown in colour whereas I guess that Bison ( just like our Gorilla Grip Express 100% Exp Poly ) is white or off white. I suspect the brown colouring has been added in to camouflage it a bit better when used on natural wood as it is much more widely used in the USA construction industry compared to other countries.

That brown additive may make it ooze more than the white variety, but if is't 100% Exp Poly like I said, it's the same stuff in essence.

[vann]

Bison Montagekit Original is not polyurethane, but paste adhesive based on polychloroprene rubber (like neoprene), synthetic resins and solvents. It's technical documentation says:
Montage kit Original Features:
* Permanently elastic
* Filling capacity: good.
* Suitable for uneven surfaces
* Moisture and heat resistant
* No screws and nails quick and easy

Even if it's not polyurethane, if it bonds and fills gaps well, should it do the job?
And even if it does not bond very strong I could use biscuits and leave screws inside after curing...

'

[vann]

...another Bison product that I feel is a very close substitute to the PL glue. It is the "Montage Kit Original...

Have you maybe worked with Bison's PU Max Construct?

PU Max Construct.png (38.33 KiB) Viewed 1984 times

I have yet to check PU Max Construct's local availability, but this one states it is both polyurethane adhesive and gap filling:

Code: Select all

http://www.bison.net/US/en/view.do?UID=af993e0fc2c7dd2dc07cdc
PU Max Construct
High-quality universal polyurethane adhesive with filler effect. Fast, pasty and extra-strong. Sets under the influence of air and/or material humidity.
Field of application
For water-resistant bonding of stone, hardwoods, softwoods and exotic woods, formica, concrete, metals and PU and PS rigid foam on porous substrates.
Ideal for vertical joints. Not suitable for polyethylene, polypropylene, P.T.F.E. and nylon.
Properties

    * Resistance to moisture: the adhesive must not be diluted.
    * Resistance to chemicals: good.
    * Filling properties: good.
    * Quality: thixotropic, so also highly suitable for vertical joints.
    * Overpaintability: good. 

[N.Webber]

As a side note, what type of situations do you use the regular woodworking glue for?

That would be mainly where there is a perfect (tight...) fit. Such as at precision dados, or stepped/tapered joins or when using biscuits (is that the right term?...).
Also where parts need to be sled into place and so both mating edges are pre coated with glue.

As to the (Original) Montage Kit, looking at the literature it is described as "Paste adhesive based on polychloroprene rubber, synthetic resins and solvents"
So it isn't true Polyurethane based glue But, as I mentioned it is a great gap filling and sealing adhesive. It comes as a thick paste, very sticky (and messy…)
a little lighter in color then the PL, dries supper strong yet easy to sand, saw, drill or rout (same workability as the ply/wood).

Here an example of the Montage Kit used to glue a handle pocket and horn braces:

[N.Webber]

Have you maybe worked with Bison's PU Max Construct?

This one actually looks most compatible to the PL. I haven't seen this type around here
If obtainable near you, I think it should be your first choice.

[vann]

Tnx mate,
if I can't find PU Max Construct locally than I'll go with Bison (Original) Montage Kit.

BTW something I've learned in this thread is that I was wrong to think that every polyurethane based adhesive is also gap filling. When I look at the glue I bought, on Bison Pu Max Timber descriptions there's no claim for gap filling properties. And that seems especially important for horn boxes. When the horn box is closed some of the inner joints became unreachable and thus any air gaps became unfixable leeks.


As another side note (since I plan to borrow a biscuit joiner), when using biscuit joins the regular woodworking glue (PVA) is recommended?

[Harley]

BTW something I've learned in this thread is that I was wrong to think that every polyurethane based adhesive is also gap filling....

Yes, you have to ascertain that it is Expanding 100% polyurethane in order to match the properties of PL

[N.Webber]

...when using biscuit joins the regular woodworking glue (PVA) is recommended?

I would say yes. I don't use this method allot but when I do, my practice is always Elmer's carpenter's wood glue for the biscuits/slots.
As the fit there is generally very good, if using thicker glue, the excess glue will not be able to flow out of the slots and may prevent the parts from reaching their final/close fit position.

[Harley]

...when using biscuit joins the regular woodworking glue (PVA) is recommended?

I would say yes.)

Me too. From the research I did, it was commonly stated that the compressed biscuit was designed to expand in the joint with glues like PVA, after it soaks up the moisture from the PVA. PL on the other hand needs moisture itself to cure.

Having said that I've used biscuits with PL, and the joint is as solid as.