Behringer EP4000

[Adam Schaible]

From what I've read the 4000 is a re-labeled 2500.
Both junk if you know what a good amp is.

But not bad for the money.

[Sydney]

In Stan's defense:
The author of that pdf
( http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... pter_4.pdf)
Left out the relevant math that defines what "momentary peak power" really means in the context of an amp with a conventional bridge rectified powers supply* that charges/discharges capacitors according to mains line frequency.
You can burst a transient that lasts far less than 1/60 of a sec (.016 ) but with decreasing frequency the period is longer and is not sustainable. A few cycles of 1Khz tone ( .001 each ) can easily fit in a cap drain off cycle.
Much like a small battery can charge a high voltage cap to fire a very brief camera strobe flash, but it is not sustainable.
( BTW: This is may be the 1st amp paper I've seen with no amp design math - but a picture of a toilet )

* Not all do and are designed with different criteria and guidelines.
20mS burst test is common with very high power amplifiers, such as those from Powersoft or Lab.Gruppen.
"The EIA RS-490 (former IHF A-202) amplifier test standard includes a "dynamic headroom" test employing a 20-mS tone-burst. In an informal survey of musical recordings, power bursts were found with durations from a few milliseconds up to several hundred milliseconds, with an apparent clustering in the 80-200-mS range. Since the practical value of an amplifier depends on its ability to reproduce musical dynamics, a more useful power rating would be obtained by amending the dynamic headroom test to employ a 200-millisecond (or similar) tone-burst."

[soundmankeith]

Could I hear a difference in my T39's or DR250's limited to the same voltage with a EP2500 vs a QSC PLX vs a LabGruppen?
FWIW, My, bought new, PLX 3102 (current generation) running 2 dr250s runs very hot compared to my "B" stock Crown XTi4000 running 4 T39's (both running hard). WTF?

[SoundInMotionDJ]

In Stan's defense:
The author of that pdf
( http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... pter_4.pdf)
Left out the relevant math that defines what "momentary peak power" really means in the context of an amp with a conventional bridge rectified powers supply* that charges/discharges capacitors according to mains line frequency.
You can burst a transient that lasts far less than 1/60 of a sec (.016 ) but with decreasing frequency the period is longer and is not sustainable. A few cycles of 1Khz tone ( .001 each ) can easily fit in a cap drain off cycle.
Much like a small battery can charge a high voltage cap to fire a very brief camera strobe flash, but it is not sustainable.
( BTW: This is may be the 1st amp paper I've seen with no amp design math - but a picture of a toilet )

I was about to type much the same thing.

The limit of wall power I cited is in fact a continuous limit. While an amp can store some power internally in capacitors, it is still really hard to get excited about amps with ratings higher than 2400w. In reality, both are likely running 200-400w per channel on a continuous basis...and everything else is peaks. Dynamic range is important...but the amp is just one small piece in a much larger puzzle.

--Stan Graves

[SoundInMotionDJ]

Could I hear a difference in my T39's or DR250's limited to the same voltage with a EP2500 vs a QSC PLX vs a LabGruppen?

First, let me say that in this review I am being very, very, very picky. The kinds of differences I am talking about were not even noticed by the "neighbor on the street".

I did an A/B/C with my Peavey CS-800X, QSC PLX 3402, and EP-2500. There was a very subtle difference in the coloration of the sound between the three amps. All three were setup to provide the same output voltage for a given input signal....and that was well within the limits of all the amps. All the amps were run into a single T39 and a single DR200.

The Peavey is a workhorse amp, and I have had mine for almost 10 years. They are rock solid, reliable, and built like an anchor. The sound had a noticable bass bias....which can be OK if you are into that kind of thing. I had 6 of these monsters, and hated to get rid of them. But, at 75pounds racked....it was time to go for something smaller. Overall if i were to describe the sound of the Peavey, I would say 'muddy'...there is not much dynamic range, and there is not a clear separation of instruments...this is especially noticeable at low volume levels.

The QSC was purchased new as an experiment in the new lighter generation of amps. Overall I was very pleased with everything about the amp, except the cost. The overall sound was flat...there was some roll off on the >15kHz range...but overall the amp was acceptably flat. If I had more $ than sense, I would have half a dozen of these right now.

The EP-2500 was the amp I settled on for my BFM setup. I needed a lot of amps, and $$$ being as scarce as they are, I "settled" for the EP. These are about 45 pounds racked....so I did get a good weight reduction compared to the Peaveys. The sound quality is also better than the Peavey's that these are replacing. The QSC seemed very slightly more articulate, especially at very low SPL levels. The QSC was also very slightly more prominent in the vocal range than the EP. These differences were very minor. The vocal range is easily corrected with around 1dB of movement on some bands in the EQ.

The most noticeable difference between the QSC and EP is the weight and cost.

Several neighbors could not hear any differences at all between any of the three amps. My wife could hear the extra bass in the Peavey and not hear any difference between the QSC and EP.

--Stan Graves

[Ron K]

I honestly feel that for "live" music dynamic range is far more important than pure SPLs.

When you squash program material in an attempt to squeeze more RMS out of the system it doesn't necessarily mean that the source sounds louder.It is true we usually judge loudness by RMS levels but wider dynamic range material sounds more life like and lively then any squashed content. When rigs are left to produce high level transients (short of destroying drivers were talking reasonable limits here) those rigs sound better to my ears then anything that overly compressed or squashed. Sounding louder is not always sounding better.

The difference between a good amp and a great amp lies in it's ability to do 2 things efficiently. Convert outlet power into usable music power and maintain signal integrity from input to output.The peeks that are so often disregarded by SPL freaks are the very reason a lot of live mixes sound like CDs.Not that I think CDs sound bad. I just think uncompressed live music sounds more real and the only reason recording engineers compress is to fit all the music on the medium and of course today's trend is very overly compressed make it sound loud.

Since CDs have an effective Dynamic range of about 96db live can often far exceed that.Some live sources up close approach 110db and over 130 up close! Reasonable compression is utilized to fit live to recorded and can be done with good results.Unfortunately toady we see more and more way over compressed media and I see some live guys taking the over compression plunge as well.

Not to sway the topic but dynamic range is still very important and having an amp capable of giving great dynamic range is important as well.

I'm not sure the Behringer amp falls into this category but I do know the EP2500s work quite well at their price point. For "less" critical applications I wouldn't hesitate to throw one into pro use (monitors side fills etc.). I know a few who in fact do use them and use them hard. One would wonder if the newer 4000s would now be able to provide a better peek reproduction with the same reliability of the 2500. If so that changes things dramatically as it would enable you to move the B-ringer off monitor duty and perhaps put it into use on the mains as well?????

[producerd]

A 120v 20amp outlet can only provide 2400w. Don't get too wrapped up in amp ratings that are higher than that.

--Stan Graves

Stan is the man, but that statement is not entirely true, or specifically what that statement implies is not always true, as a PA power amplifier can and does store more energy, and can deliver more energy when needed, than what is available to be sucked out of a 120V 20AMP outlet continuously.

Check this for a neat analogy:
http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes ... pter_4.pdf

The “2,400 watt argument” is “half right and
half wrong.” It is correct that you can’t get more
(continuous) power out of the amplifier than the wall
socket can deliver… The salient point here is that
this is ONLY true for a CONTINUOUS average (RMS)
power basis… It is NOT true that the “theoretical
limit” represents the MAXIMUM power that can be
delivered MOMENTARILY from the amplifier (i.e. by
the P = I X R formula). Some modern “power factor
corrected” power amp power supplies modify this
generalized assumption somewhat.

Thanks for the link! Verry interesting. I was about to get upset while reading this thread . I just bought EP4000 Didn't have a chance to test it on gig. But, I just finished 2X T39 3012 loaded, 20" wide . Turned them on in my garage near exit facing out. Made a mesuraments 70ft away, after getting up to 108db shot them down. Didn't want neighbours to call One interesting fact: I didn't get to the clip level yet. As far as electrical mesuraments, I need to build strong enough 8 ohm dummy load than will see.

[mloretitsch]

Buy the amp for service and resale value. QSC/Crown tend to do well in this regard. Used amps from the big few guys can be bought and sold a few years apart without much or any monetary loss. I bought all of my QSC amps used, and all of them go for the same money on ebay two years later. I would imagine the Behringer line holds some value as well.

I can only hear the difference in amps pushed right the limits of their design. Macrotechs will sit happily outside on a 100 degree day and drive a 4 ohm per channel setup into clipping. The same cannot be said for many lesser amps.

It's 90 degrees outside and you have a hard rock band playing from 2pm to 4pm. Which amp do you want to take with you? Both rated about the same power... RMX2450 left and EP2500 right. I suppose Behringer has a better winding technique and a better ferrite core yielding a more efficient transformer than QSC...yeah right.

[AntonZ]

More room for better airflow around the Behringer transformer?



Just kidding, just kidding.

[producerd]

In EP4000 transformer is biger than 2500. I will post a pic later.

[producerd]

Here it is, EP4000 open

Very big capacitors

[Israel]

hi pal a friend of mine blew 2 in a night (i think he is the missing link he had blown away crowns and the old reliable peaveys by dozens each) in the fact that if an amp can get 4000 w frm a 15a circuit 2000w @2ohms per ch are 63 volts 1200w are 49
I overlooked one of the blown amp (we made an autopsy that was great) and it is fairly the same ep2500 amp maybe with disctint architecture. they are made to cover the main flaw of the 2500 in the road that is almost no headroom at lower impedance. they sound the same as 2500 except maybe for that even that you need a great supply of power to move them we used a 30A 240v in that show. i mean do not connect 2 of them in the same oulet/breaker

[Israel]

Here it is, EP4000 open

Very big capacitors

mines are bigger hahhahh I have a samson S2000 1000w ch @4 ohms rms 3 rack spacers 68 pounds of amp a toroid that is roughly 7 inches in diameter and a set of 4 caps per ch each maybe twice the size as these. the owner of a bar gave it to me a couple of years ago i was so gatefull that i marry his daughter

[jeffbabcock]

As has been shown in the photos, the EP's are essentially reverse-engineered QSC RMX with cheaper components substituted in some places. They may be cheap but I dislike Behringer's business practices enough that I don't even consider them an option.

For an inexpensive amp, stay tuned for the new super-lightweight IPR amps coming out from Peavey. They are due later this month, and have lots of power at very reasonable prices.

[Ron K]

Unfortunately we now live in a society where reverse engineering is not only accepted it's encouraged. Especially in the world of manufacturing.Cant say I didn't see it coming.

Manufacturers were and still are in some instances taking advantage of the "proprietary" pieces of equipment sold in the marketplace and have been simply charging whatever the markets would bear!

Those of us who are responsible for keeping things running and purchasing new equipment saw this trend coming 10 years ago.It wouldn't be long until someone realized that there's tons of money to be made from reverse engineering some pieces of equipment and repair parts. Simply put manufacture a replacement part and sell it at 1/2 the OEM cost. Legal??? Well legal or not many companies seam unwilling to fight it. Why? Put 1 out of business and another will pop up the very next day.Very costly in the long run. Most major equipment manufacturers just seam to tolerate it and apparently it filtered over into the pro sound markets as well. I remember Mackie fighting and now Behringer seams to run unscathed on a day to day basis.