DR300 questions

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Paul Amelang
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DR300 questions

#1 Post by Paul Amelang »

Thanks in advance for reading and answering these questions.

Background:
I'm doing a permanent install for my church. We play LOUD. I'm attracted to the DR series because of the sensitivity and the fact that they are flyable. I suppose any of the speakers could be flown, but the J-array would be especially suitable. I plan to use the Titan 48 with LAB 15's for subs. I will power the system with Hypex class-D modules (UCD series for the subs, N-core for the tops and mids).

Question:
Is it possible to get the extra bass extension and sensitivity of the DR300 while getting the horizontal HF dispersion of the DR280, without seriously modifying the plans? I plan to use Eminence's N314X-8 compression drivers (https://www.eminence.com/speakers/drive ... el=N314X_8) with active crossovers around 1khz.

It is a medium sized church. I know that people are going to tell me that I don't need the DR300's. That may be the case. However, I would love to be able to crossover at 80hz without losing sensitivity, and the extra overall sensitivity (looks like about 2.5db over the DR280) means that I would need about half the amp power, saving us money. We are on a tiny budget and every dollar counts. I am not dead set on the N314X-8's (I haven't heard them), but I did order a pair to hear how they sound. The specs look good to me for the price point, and I would prefer not to order HF drivers from Europe and pay the associated premium. I am open to alternatives if you have suggestions, but I would like to use a premium HF driver. Here is a link to a Test Bench article on the N314X-8: https://audioxpress.com/article/test-be ... ion-driver. I'm sure there are better sounding compression drivers, but are there any better ones in that price point (in the USA)?

Bruce Weldy
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Re: DR300 questions

#2 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Paul Amelang wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:36 pm Thanks in advance for reading and answering these questions.

Background:
I'm doing a permanent install for my church. We play LOUD. I'm attracted to the DR series because of the sensitivity and the fact that they are flyable. I suppose any of the speakers could be flown, but the J-array would be especially suitable. I plan to use the Titan 48 with LAB 15's for subs. I will power the system with Hypex class-D modules (UCD series for the subs, N-core for the tops and mids).

Question:
Is it possible to get the extra bass extension and sensitivity of the DR300 while getting the horizontal HF dispersion of the DR280, without seriously modifying the plans? I plan to use Eminence's N314X-8 compression drivers (https://www.eminence.com/speakers/drive ... el=N314X_8) with active crossovers around 1khz.

It is a medium sized church. I know that people are going to tell me that I don't need the DR300's. That may be the case. However, I would love to be able to crossover at 80hz without losing sensitivity, and the extra overall sensitivity (looks like about 2.5db over the DR280) means that I would need about half the amp power, saving us money. We are on a tiny budget and every dollar counts. I am not dead set on the N314X-8's (I haven't heard them), but I did order a pair to hear how they sound. The specs look good to me for the price point, and I would prefer not to order HF drivers from Europe and pay the associated premium. I am open to alternatives if you have suggestions, but I would like to use a premium HF driver. Here is a link to a Test Bench article on the N314X-8: https://audioxpress.com/article/test-be ... ion-driver. I'm sure there are better sounding compression drivers, but are there any better ones in that price point (in the USA)?
Before picking a cab, it would be good to let us know the size of the room, number of people in the crowd, etc.

Some general observations......

Unless you are going to be paying to 5000 people outside - the DR300 isn't the right box for you. DR250 or 280 would be plenty depending on how many per side you want to hang.

The drivers you are looking at are way too expensive....but, more importantly - they won't fit in a 280or a 300. Too wide - maximum width is 4 inches.

If the system is to be installed and hung - why use module amps that are designed to be installed in cabs? Why not just use an amp rack? If you ever have a failure or problem, it's a whole lot easier to get to the amps and processing in a rack on the ground than renting a scissor lift to start pulling components out of a box 20 feet in the air. Plus it's less cabling.

And the big question - do you have an engineer who will certify your flying design? You'll have to have rigging built to safely hold these things up.

These are just some of the things that should be discussed in depth when making decisions on a system this big.

Good news is that there are people here who will be glad to help you out.

Where are you located?

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Paul Amelang
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:31 pm
Location: Brenham, Texas

Re: DR300 questions

#3 Post by Paul Amelang »

Bruce,

Thanks for the helpful reply.

You are right that I don't need the max SPL of the DR300's. But it seems like they would take about the same time and money to make as the DR280's, and I couldn't resist at least asking if it was possible to get the extra bass extension and sensitivity of the 300's without having the dispersion be too narrow. Those extra decibels of sensitivity are just crying out to me. I understand that editing the plans is do-at-your-own-risk and not encouraged.

Oops! Sorry, I could have sworn that I checked the diameter of the drivers and they were under 4". I'm not sure how I missed that. Okay, so those are out.

The class-D modules from Hypex are not plate amplifiers (though they do sell plate amps as well). They are modules that go into an aluminum chassis. I will make the chassis myself, I have the CNC and metal brake.

About the engineer certifying the rigging:
Is it a legal requirement to have an engineer certify the rigging, or are you personally recommending that? For what its worth, I am a nervous Nelly.


Thanks again.

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Seth
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Re: DR300 questions

#4 Post by Seth »

Paul Amelang wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:24 pm ...About the engineer certifying the rigging:
Is it a legal requirement to have an engineer certify the rigging, or are you personally recommending that? For what its worth, I am a nervous Nelly.
Pretty sure it's a liability issue and insurance requirement. Gives you someone other than yourself to point at if it falls and hurts/kills someone. Oddly enough, no real certification needed to hang a ceiling fan though. Hmm.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Bruce Weldy
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Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: DR300 questions

#5 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Paul Amelang wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:24 pm
Is it a legal requirement to have an engineer certify the rigging, or are you personally recommending that? For what its worth, I am a nervous Nelly.


Thanks again.
Legal? Not really. But, if you don't get it engineered properly and built to those specs with the engineer signing off - you, your church, the pastor, the elders, deacons, finance committee, the janitor and anyone else even loosely associated stand the chance of getting their tails sued off if something goes wrong.

That's why the rigs for flying commercial boxes are so expensive. It's not the materials (that probably cost $10 to build) - it's the liability. Most of those go for over $1000 for just the frame. Of course, then all of the other rigging is built into the boxes themselves.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 8301
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: DR300 questions

#6 Post by Bruce Weldy »

Do you have the plans for any of the BFM boxes yet? You really want to settle on the design based on the needs of your room and audience, then let the box dictate the components. Honestly, I've mixed on some big, really expensive line arrays and these boxes sound as good or better.....and I just have the OT12s. The DRs are even more efficient.

6 - T39 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512
1 - T24
1 - SLA Pro
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Paul Amelang
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:31 pm
Location: Brenham, Texas

Re: DR300 questions

#7 Post by Paul Amelang »

Bruce and Seth,

Thanks for the advice. Being the stubborn person that I am, I am reluctant to forego flying the speakers, but I will certainly look into it thoroughly and talk about it with the church. Weight may be a reason to go with one of the smaller DR's. Hanging a 150lb stack safely is a lesser engineering feet than hanging a 300lb stack.

I do have all of the BFM plans. While I wouldn't consider using a driver that is out of the T/S range for the plans, or purposefully consider a driver that is physically too large or small (oops), I'm not afraid to upgrade the F151M-8 compression driver, as I don't think that amounts to a significant change in the plans. Unfortunately, I don't think I can give an estimate of the room size or amount of people that would be accurate. Or the volume in decibels that we normally play at. I could take a guess off the top of my head, but it wouldn't be very helpful because it would likely be incorrect. Unfortunately, I am not there long enough to measure it since I travel there from another church, rehearse for 30 minutes, play for 30 minutes, and then leave to go to another church. I will have to make a special trip to get the exact dimensions.

I have a feel of the overall pros and cons of the different cabs from reading the forums. I am not asking for an overall system recommendation as much as a couple specific things about the DR-line that is independent from what room the system will be going in. I want the sensitivity of the DR300 with the HF dispersion if the DR280. I basically want to have my cake and eat it too! Haha. Is that possible? I imagine that if the HF dispersion was wider on the DR300, the 2x compression drivers would still have no problem keeping up with the woofer. Would that amount to a fundamental change in the plans, or only a small adaption?

Are there any American made, low distortion alternatives to the FM151-8 that can be crossed over at or below 1000hz?


Thank you, sage advisors!

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: DR300 questions

#8 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

You can't go lower than 1.2kHz, the HF horn won't support it. I see no reason to go lower than what DR280 or DR250 are capable of. You say you have a medium sized church. DR300s would be appropriate in a mega church. Besides, depending on how the room is laid out you may be better off with stacked DR250, DR200 or OTop 12 JArray anyway.

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Seth
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Re: DR300 questions

#9 Post by Seth »

No problem Paul. The HF driver stuff is outside my wheelhouse, not gonna be any help there.

Out of curiosity, what are they using for sound now? What's your overall impression of the sound with the existing gear, and what improvements would you like to achieve?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Tom Smit
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Re: DR300 questions

#10 Post by Tom Smit »

Paul, welcome to the forum! Much helpful advice is given here.

If you can, please get the room dimensions and the usual number of attendees.

I have an alternative suggestion which may be helpful if the room is long rather than wide. It is the TLAH PRO, a simple cabinet that can reach down pretty deep considering that it is a top.
TomS

Paul Amelang
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Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:31 pm
Location: Brenham, Texas

Re: DR300 questions

#11 Post by Paul Amelang »

It's nice to meet everyone!

Thanks for all the advice and recommendations.

1.2khz is fine for me if that is the lowest the HF horn will go. If it's not possible to widen the HF dispersion of the DR300's, then I will build a smaller DR or something else.

I'm sure the TLAH PRO sounds great. I just like the idea of horn loading the woofers for sensitivity. Tom, would you say that the human voice sounds more accurate through the TLAH PRO over the DR series? I suppose with a line array of smaller woofers and piezo tweeters would sound great since the woofers could handle most of the vocal frequency range, but then I imagine that the mid-high frequencies wouldn't couple properly for being too far apart. So I would be back to using compression drivers and crossing them over low so that the woofers can couple below the crossover frequency


Thanks again guys.

Paul Amelang
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:31 pm
Location: Brenham, Texas

Re: DR300 questions

#12 Post by Paul Amelang »

Seth,

Their system is a joke. When I started playing there, they had their mains set up behind the musicians. Of course there was a lot of feedback. We play VERY loud there. Louder than any club I've played at. It's half gospel and half contemporary christian stuff. I've been forced to dime my 2x10 35 watt Vibrolux before because I couldn't hear myself. They had JBL's recessed into the walls pointing at the ceiling! They use a few different Yamaha and Peavey powered mixers to run everything. I'm helping to take them into the 21st century with a digital mixer, trying to get people on IEM's to improve the stage volume.

They are good people. It is a lot of fun playing with them.

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Seth
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Re: DR300 questions

#13 Post by Seth »

Paul Amelang wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:17 am Seth,

...When I started playing there, they had their mains set up behind the musicians...
...They had JBL's recessed into the walls pointing at the ceiling...
They use a few different Yamaha and Peavey powered mixers to run everything
Good of you to contribute to their better enjoyment Paul :thumbsup:

Had?

What is the current configuration and gear?
What's your overall impression of the sound with the current configuration?
What qualities of the current configuration would you like to improve?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: DR300 questions

#14 Post by Seth »

Is the church bigger/smaller than this?

Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

Grant Bunter
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Re: DR300 questions

#15 Post by Grant Bunter »

G'day and welcome :)

I reckon you oughta go for a quick drive over to Bruce's and get a demo.
That way you're hearing, not looking at paper.

Then you'll have some perspective about capability.

Sorry Bruce, not assuming your going to say yes...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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