More Tweeter Schenanigans (Tone exploration!)

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Strapping Young Stu
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More Tweeter Schenanigans (Tone exploration!)

#1 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

Ok, so having established through an aural testing method that my old CTS Powerline tweeters are massively louder than the West London Electric tweeters I purchased, I wanted to do a proper test.

So I selected a particularly nasty track with lots of distortion and high end cymbal crashing (Messhuggah) and played it back through my tweeters via a portable CD players headphone output. I setup my behringer ECM8000 measurement microphone plugged in via cakewalk sonar and tested various types of tweeters with this same track, taking the average output of the introduction and first verse of the track. The placement of the microphone did not change and the tweeters were positioned at the same distance from the microphone, on axis with the microphone diaphragm.

My goal here is not to find out which is louder, but to find out how the shape and wiring of the tweeters affects the response. Recently there have been a lot of discussions about how the different shape and styling affects the “sound” that the tweeters give, and since the tone of something is very important to me I wanted to do this test and I wanted to do it with real music rather than white/pink noise.

First of all, here is the plot of the background noise of the computer in the room I recorded in. I used an EQ plug in before the analyser to get rid of all signals below 600Hz. I probably could have gone up to 1.5kHz in fact but I decided that this was an acceptable background figure. Just be aware of it when viewing the upcoming photos

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So first up is a single CTS Powerline Tweeter – note that its response is strong right down to 2kHz and there is a smallish dip at about 6kHz but not a lot to be concerned about. Also notice the average volume level.

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Next up is a single 1177 WLE dual element tweeter – note how there is a weakness at 3kHz and 10kHz compared to the CTS and also note how the 1177 is as strong at 5kHz but gets obliterated by the CTS above that. On the plus side it appears to roll off slightly slower at the very high end (20kHz)

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Now we move to 2 1177s parallel wired, physics says that the response should start to flatten and there should be 6dB more output. In a blind listening test the CTS tweeter is still slightly louder on its own than these 4 elements but only just! They are much stronger in the 5kHz area and now have the sensitivity at the low end of their range as well. They are still losing out to the CTS at 10kHz and above.

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Now lets compare the 4 1177s parallel wired with the 1005s also parallel wired. Apples with apples here so this is a direct head to head! The plots at first appear similar and the 1005s seem to have a flatter response in the 3kHz area, and indeed they do, but once you look across to the output side of things, the 1005 array is over 3dB quieter on average than the 1177 array, now lets not forget these are the same tweeter elements manufactured by the same company but the response is different, so that can almost certainly be horn related. The 1005 array also has some of the defects in response that the single 1177 exhibited, such as the weakness at 10kHz and above.

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So what does this all mean? Well judging from the sound alone, the 1177s sounded more balanced to my ears, the sound compliments the music perhaps a bit better than the 1005s, the CTS beats them all on sensitivity but its frequency response means it’s a little harder sounding, this characteristic should go away with them all stacked but when they were available CTS Powerline tweeters cost over ten times as much as the WLE piezos I purchased. With hindsight and Dave Perrys testing, we now know that the CPC piezos are better quality than these WLEs, but for those who might have been sitting on the fence as to which model of piezo to purchase, perhaps this helps matters a little. I will be buying other piezos in the future from CPC including the much-used 1016 to test as I think its important to get the right tool for the job.

In addition to this I tested out the tweeters with some other tracks both live and electronic based. The best overall tonal quality came from the 1177, with the CTS sounding harder in the 2kHz range with all the test tracks. The 1005s sounded good for electronic music but not good at all for more organic sounds.

Anyway until next time...

Stu

bubblersound
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#2 Post by bubblersound »

I would like to see how the 1025 compares to the ones you've tested. I bought 1025's for my OT12's.

Strapping Young Stu
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#3 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

The important thing is to have something for a comparison, I know the CTS have a reputation for being great, so I used that as a benchmark, I dont have access to any 1025s unfortunately but ultimately as long as you are happy with the ouput, most of the rest of the sound can be EQd so long as the tweeter elements are of good quality.

What you want to look out for is as I reported in my Spelling death for WLE piezos article is that the elements are well supported in their frame, the WLE ones are so loose its amazing you get anything out of them!

I am looking into tweeter mods at the moment but its unnecessary if you are happy with the sound

Stu

rafaro
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Piezo comparison

#4 Post by rafaro »

One interested primarily in SPL and extended freq response would be interested in the comparison between the CTS 1177 (double element) and a powerline tweet and then possibly a vertical array of each. Is the CTS or CPC 1177 equivalent twice as loud as a single element tweet??
Apparently the HF cancellation of the adjacent double element horn 1177 tweets is limited according to this...and seems to diminish even more so with stacking them?

bgavin
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#5 Post by bgavin »

What was the measurement distance for the mic? I'm curious if room characteristics came into play.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

Strapping Young Stu
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#6 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

1m - but this was due to the low output of signal feeding the tweeters, and my attempts to try and avoid the room effects as much as possible

As I say this was particularly interesting for me mainly to listen to the TONE of the tweeter and for me the decision was not just about output, as I found the CTS tweeter somewhat fatiguing after a while whereas the 1177s didnt have that characteristic and the 1005s sounded like flies buzzing around my head - i did not like them at all.

Stu

Strapping Young Stu
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Re: Piezo comparison

#7 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

rafaro wrote: Apparently the HF cancellation of the adjacent double element horn 1177 tweets is limited according to this...and seems to diminish even more so with stacking them?
It sounded like it to my ears, the elements are about as close as you can get, and for the most part the horns already are physically coupled together quite nicely - I still think there is an element of the physical design of the tweeter that makes it sound better than the 1005 though, mainly the path length and the expansion of the flare seems to sound more natural and pleasant to listen to, from what others say about the CPC 1016s I would guess the same may apply to those also

Stu

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#8 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Strapping Young Stu wrote:1m - but this was due to the low output of signal feeding the tweeters, and my attempts to try and avoid the room effects as much as possible
Stu
Line arrays can only be measured accurately at distances of at least 4m, even more with an array measuring more than 1/2m high.

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DAVID_L_PERRY
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#9 Post by DAVID_L_PERRY »

Stu, I also found that once the mic was pulled back to approx 4m the response is far smoother. It gives the elements chance to integrate, even with a single DR 12bank of piezo's

Also the pink noise only needs to be louder than background noise, and if the room is dead quite then that is not loud at all....

Dave

Strapping Young Stu
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#10 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

Ok I admit my testing method wasnt the best, but I did say about tone, and listening to pink noise isnt the greatest way to judge that so i did the test with real music as I already stated.

The measurements were an extra thing just to stick up here on the site to back up my findings, they were largely irrelevant when listening to the tonal qualities of the piezo

Stu

Sydney

#11 Post by Sydney »

From what I gather pink noise is preferred. Some advocate a modulated or modified pink noise if used indoor to suppress exciting room nodes & reflections.
Has anyone tried the Sound Strobe ( audioXpress 4/07 )?

cforger
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#12 Post by cforger »

That's very interesting on the tonal qualities of the various tweeters.

I only have limited experience with piezo tweeters, having heard them on some mid-range car 6x9 speakers, and then for a direct radiator type of PA system I built before stumbling on Bill's site.

What I used in the past was a pair of Pyle Pro PDBT58's. Here's a link to them:

http://www.audio-discounters.com/pdbt58.html

massive tweeters as you can see, compared to what you guys are using for your arrays. I only used one for each top, as they are massively loud.

While initially I was happy with them because they added the high end that my midbass speakers just didn't have, I found that they were "harsh" to listen to for any period of time. I tried many tricks in shaping them with EQ, but I could just never get them to sound sweet. I know that's a hard term to define, but I often compare my PA stack to my quality HT setup as a point of reference, and while I don't expect the PA to sound as good as the HT, the difference between the high end was night and day worse with those tweeters.

I eventually replaced them with a pair JBL2441 compression drivers each set in a JBL2380a horn, and found the sound to be much better - It's not as sweet as the HT, but it's far less harsh than the Pyle units. I was able to A/B them on the left and right (then reverse in case the stereo mixing was different on the tracks), and the JBLs won out.

I guess my question is, how are others finding the tonal qualities of these various tweeters? It sounds like the 1177's sound better, but are quieter - are people picking their tweeters for SPL or tonal quality?

I'll be looking to build a DR250 shortly, and this is of some concern for me. Listening fatigue is an issue I'm trying to minimize with a PA setup, and harsh sounding tweeters are something you need to avoid... but it's so subjective..

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DAVID_L_PERRY
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#13 Post by DAVID_L_PERRY »

You are comparing one piezo to one comp driver...dont, they wont win. What is done with Bills cabs is multiple piezo drivers, harshness is all gone....output is great, wieght is down.....you win all round

Check this out:-
http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2718

And this
http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=30

Dave

Strapping Young Stu
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#14 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

cforger wrote: It sounds like the 1177's sound better, but are quieter - are people picking their tweeters for SPL or tonal quality?
No my 1177s are quieter because I picked tweeters from the wrong place - I went to WLE-shop.co.uk and bought skytronic brand tweeters when I should have gone to cpc.farnell.com and got them from there

David perry did a test of WLE vs CPC and the CPC were far superior.

So if you get them from anywhere else but WLE or buy a different brand to skytronic you should get similar output to the powerlines

Stu

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LelandCrooks
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#15 Post by LelandCrooks »

cforger wrote:, and while I don't expect the PA to sound as good as the HT,
Raise your expectations. It can. It requires work in the shop and with dsp. Build 4 250's, spend a day or two with eq. Use David's settings as a starting point. They're very close to how my DR's are set.

I picked mine on price alone, originally. I have since standardized on the goldwood 1016.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com

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