New Build - T30s and then Otops to follow

[Bruce Weldy]

'medical grade glass fibre'

I believe you can get medical grade fibre from bananas, avocados, apples, legumes, and of course a variety of cardboard-tasting breakfast cereals.

Not sure how you get it from glass, though..... Might be a bit painful when passing....

[Radian]

As I've never used digital linking......for those of you that have - Is it really even noticeable in a live sound or DJ setting?

Yes, absolutley

There are all kind of signal paths going on here besides the board to the processor - processor to amp, amp to speakers. These aren't digital.

The paths that really count (mixer & signal processors) can/should be, and when they are, the improvement in noise reduction is very apparent. Especially with truly budget gear where the analog signal paths are "adequate" and not a drop more.

Can anyone truly say that in an AB test under live conditions - you could tell the difference?

We did at the last outing in Illinois. Just ask Ewetho and the Baron. When I by-passed their analog mixer and patched my laptop directly into their DEQ using fiber optic, the positive change in sound quality was enough to turn heads. With a good system, you can certainly hear the differences in the signal chain....especially as SPL's climb.

[Bruce Weldy]

When I by-passed their analog mixer and patched my laptop directly into their DEQ using fiber optic, the positive change in sound quality was enough to turn heads. With a good system, you can certainly hear the differences in the signal chain....especially as SPL's climb.

Interesting.....how much of that could be attributed to the quality of the mixer? I mean if it was a B-ringer, I could imagine some sonic differences.

I guess I'm a little jaded....with so many poorly set up and EQed systems out there....I can't imagine that going digital would make much difference for the average guy. Maybe I should set my sights higher.

[Radian]

Interesting.....how much of that could be attributed to the quality of the mixer? I mean if it was a B-ringer, I could imagine some sonic differences.

It was a typical 16 channel Yamaha touring type. Steve would know the model number.

I guess I'm a little jaded....with so many poorly set up and EQed systems out there....I can't imagine that going digital would make much difference for the average guy.

Pretty much anyone can drive a system into the ground, no matter what's underneath the hood.

[Bruce Weldy]

It was a typical 16 channel Yamaha touring type.

Well, that is good enough for me.

I guess once I get everything else perfect.....nah, that won't ever happen...

[escapemcp]

I am opting for a digital link for several reasons - in priority order

1. Simplified wiring... the dishes that i am using on my flightcase only have 2 size d holes in them (and any other dish with more holes was too wide to fit). I have 1 dish per side, so after i have used one of these holes on each side for powercon in and out, i only have 1 hole left on each side. One of these is being used for the sub, and so running stereo analogue xlr was out unless i used a third dish. Using the digi out on the mixer seemed like the obvious solution to this. FYI I have also drilled out a couple of rca holes in each of the dishes to provide a stereo in and out as access to the back of the mixer is not easy (by design). Also less wires=less wires to lose... when tearing down at noon in the pitch black bunker we sometimes use after a heavy night this is a definite plus!
2. Better sound quality due to the elimination of a D>A and A>D stage (especially as both stages lie within behringer products). At some point in the future when funds allow, i will use a dac on the digital out of the DEQ to improve sq further
3. Reduced latency. If using traktor or a similar dj package on a pc you can increase latency to the point that it is noticable (at around 10ms you start noticing it). Eliminating an d-a/a-d stage should reduce that latency by a ms or 2, which can only help in this regard.
Thx for everyones input. I am almost there and soon will be able to put the circular saw down and get my free time back.... Probably use that free time to build some more speakers. This is turning into (another) vice of mine!

[Chris_Allen]

Did you get the iNuke 3000DSP in the end? I noticed on Thomann that the 6000 is only a little more expensive.

[Bruce Weldy]

I am opting for a digital link for several reasons - in priority order

1. Simplified wiring... the dishes that i am using on my flightcase only have 2 size d holes in them (and any other dish with more holes was too wide to fit). I have 1 dish per side, so after i have used one of these holes on each side for powercon in and out, i only have 1 hole left on each side. One of these is being used for the sub, and so running stereo analogue xlr was out unless i used a third dish. Using the digi out on the mixer seemed like the obvious solution to this. FYI I have also drilled out a couple of rca holes in each of the dishes to provide a stereo in and out as access to the back of the mixer is not easy (by design). Also less wires=less wires to lose... when tearing down at noon in the pitch black bunker we sometimes use after a heavy night this is a definite plus!
2. Better sound quality due to the elimination of a D>A and A>D stage (especially as both stages lie within behringer products). At some point in the future when funds allow, i will use a dac on the digital out of the DEQ to improve sq further
3. Reduced latency. If using traktor or a similar dj package on a pc you can increase latency to the point that it is noticable (at around 10ms you start noticing it). Eliminating an d-a/a-d stage should reduce that latency by a ms or 2, which can only help in this regard.
Thx for everyones input. I am almost there and soon will be able to put the circular saw down and get my free time back.... Probably use that free time to build some more speakers. This is turning into (another) vice of mine!

Seems like you have all valid reasons to do this in your setup.

In my live sound setup - all of your reasons for doing this don't really exist.

1. My wiring is all done through patch panels on the rack - everything in the rack stays wired and never moves. No lost cables and no fishing in the dark.

2. No D-A or A-D for me. Once it leaves the mixer, it's all analog (of course there is conversion going on in the driverack and the amps probably, but I have no control over that).

3. As I have no computers interacting on the front end, I have no latency issues.

I guess it's a case of the right tool for the job. The digital path is probably much more noticeable in the DJ world.

And if I lose an XLR cable.....I've still got 25 more, so I know the show will go on.

[escapemcp]

Did you get the iNuke 3000DSP in the end? I noticed on Thomann that the 6000 is only a little more expensive.

Yeah, i did. The 3000dsp is almost designed for bfm duty as it kicks out just over the 50V (it may struggle with the 18sound 60V tho). If you are just starting out its a cheap way to get all the electronics required (except rta, but if you had rta results from borrowing someone elses or using REW you could dial them in to the inuke). In the long run it is probably more expensive as you would be buying multiple DSPs (although it's only about 70 quid extra for the DSP model over the straight out amp).
I am very happy with it, it did 12 hours straight the other night with the final 4 hours at full tilt with no issues. Ran it of a standard genny i got from aldi (2.6 continuous for £180... stunning deal )
The only issue, and its a biggie, is that the first one blew up when playing tunes at low volume in the workshop. It was a b stock item, so i'm guessing (hoping) that before i had it, it had a fault, got sent back and they only fixed the symptom and not the original fault. Then when i bought it the fault happened again. I have read many reports of these amps and everyone who had them seem to be more than happy with them. Time will tell. The shop that i bought the amp from haven't got any more in stock atm, so i may well be using the refund to buy a deq and half a laser I do want to get another though, so i have backup.
It's a shame the 1000 is about 30W short for top duty otherwise i'd have bagged one of those. The 6000 is simply 2 3000s in bridge mode, so it is unable to run to 2ohms. Running it in 4 has the amp at full tilt, and i wouldn't need/couldn't use all that power anyway. As bill says if you don't need to bridge, then don't! I could still run up to 4 subs per side anyway, so i could power a pretty big system with a pair of these, so no real need for the 6000... unless i can blag a 6000 out of the shop to replace the blown 3000.

[sine143]

my experience is that even *2ohm stable* amps dont like going that low. I've never been able to drive subs hard on either of my crowns with more than 3 per side. even 3 per side will get the temps up to around 65 to 70 degrees C.

[byacey]

I am very happy with it, it did 12 hours straight the other night with the final 4 hours at full tilt with no issues.

Just an side observation, most people look at it from this perspective.

An alternative view is when a problem occurs, how long will the amp be down for, sitting in the shop waiting for parts or service info? If you have a decent warranty, maybe they'll lend you something to use during the interim. I know of people having bought gear that spent more time sitting in the shop than working out in the field.

I'm not saying this will happen to you, but it doesn't hurt to examine the manufacturers reputation and warranty details before purchasing. Often the dealer that sold the product will offer loaner units in such cases as part of their customer service.

[escapemcp]

I am very happy with it, it did 12 hours straight the other night with the final 4 hours at full tilt with no issues.

Just an side observation, most people look at it from this perspective.

An alternative view is when a problem occurs, how long will the amp be down for, sitting in the shop waiting for parts or service info? If you have a decent warranty, maybe they'll lend you something to use during the interim. I know of people having bought gear that spent more time sitting in the shop than working out in the field.

I'm not saying this will happen to you, but it doesn't hurt to examine the manufacturers reputation and warranty details before purchasing. Often the dealer that sold the product will offer loaner units in such cases as part of their customer service.

Yes, I agree. If you want to see what a companies customer service is like, phone up their helpdesk BEFORE you buy an item, and get a feel for how long they keep you waiting (indicates staffing levels) and what their operatives knowledge is like after you throw a pre-decided problem at them. Very handy for seeing what they will be like if something really does happen to your beloved new purchase.

From what I have read (and I have read lots) they seemed to be rock solid... until I got mine of course!!! I am happy with the brand new (i.e. the 2nd) iNuke I bought - only £20 more than the B-stock item IIRC they were not available at this price when had just been paid and was looking around for a good deal... then as I was thinking of paying £70 extra, I got an email from the b-stock shop telling me they had just got one in stock... for me that was a sign, and 5 minutes later I had bought it. I have store credit at the place I got the bust one from, so am hoping for a DEQ to come into stock in the next month. At least the B-stock one blew up almost straight away... I only have a year's guarantee on that, compared to the 5 year on the new one.

I own several Behringer products and have never had a problem with any until now. I applaud them for what they are trying to do in bringing costs down and making kit that was once just a dream into the price range of average Joe. I despise companies who trade on reputation and price hike accordingly... I mean £1500 for a Pioneer CDJ1000. I'll say that again £1500 for a CD player!! - they are not even built that well. I have come across so many Pio CDJs with bust bearings on the jogs!! For that price I could have 10 of my CDJs, and if it goes wrong, just chuck it in the river (or dispose of correctly according to WEEE directives ) and dig out the next one from the box! Note: I am not dissing companies that charge a premium for a quality product (Crown, Crest etc), just those with overcharge because they are industry standard (Pioneer) or are hiking prices because of image (please.. no one mention Beats Audio or I'll never stop!!! )

So I am guessing you can now see why I took the Behringer option, especially after reading favourable reviews. Just because a company may have made a few dodgy items in the past (DJM700 springs to mind!!), does not mean that everything they make is bad (DCX/DEQ anyone???). I may regret it, but I am willing to give them a chance. If it does turn out to be a great, solid amp, then I'll certainly let you guys know. If it's rubbish, I'll let you know likewise. Hopefully I can provide some useful, real world feedback about these amps, because they are going to get properly abused some nights. I am confident though that it will do me proud, as I have researched it thoroughly (as I do with everything (which is WHY I am here on these forums and WHY I have just given up 4 months of my life to learn woodworking!!)) - to me though, it looks like the real deal. Now just got to avoid that egg headed toward my face imminently

[DJPhatman]

Seems like you have all valid reasons to do this in your setup.

In my live sound setup - all of your reasons for doing this don't really exist.

1. My wiring is all done through patch panels on the rack - everything in the rack stays wired and never moves. No lost cables and no fishing in the dark.

2. No D-A or A-D for me. Once it leaves the mixer, it's all analog (of course there is conversion going on in the driverack and the amps probably, but I have no control over that).

3. As I have no computers interacting on the front end, I have no latency issues.

I guess it's a case of the right tool for the job. The digital path is probably much more noticeable in the DJ world.

And if I lose an XLR cable.....I've still got 25 more, so I know the show will go on.

1) Digital would be to the amps, from the rack. One wire and done. And, your mixer might have conversions going on internally.

2) Wrong. The Driverack is digital, and the amp might have A/D and D/A conversion. Going digital through the entire signal path reduces noise, latency and unnecessary conversions.

3) Sorry, Bruce, but anything digital is basically a computer. So, your Driverack is definitely a "computer" and your mixer and amps are most likely, also.

While you are extremely happy with your current set-up, it is way more digital than you might know.

[escapemcp]

I have always wanted to go digital all the way from the source (often digital anyway!) to either the amps or (powered) speakers . Very few mixers support digital in (Allan & Heath DB series and a few of the Pioneer ones are all that I know that can do this). I know lots of people prefer the warmth and general sound from analogue, but once you go digital, you might as well stay there for as long as possible. Going in and out of the digital realm over and over just seems, well, like too much repetition for no gain.

[Bruce Weldy]

Seems like you have all valid reasons to do this in your setup.

In my live sound setup - all of your reasons for doing this don't really exist.

1. My wiring is all done through patch panels on the rack - everything in the rack stays wired and never moves. No lost cables and no fishing in the dark.

2. No D-A or A-D for me. Once it leaves the mixer, it's all analog (of course there is conversion going on in the driverack and the amps probably, but I have no control over that).

3. As I have no computers interacting on the front end, I have no latency issues.

I guess it's a case of the right tool for the job. The digital path is probably much more noticeable in the DJ world.

And if I lose an XLR cable.....I've still got 25 more, so I know the show will go on.

1) Digital would be to the amps, from the rack. One wire and done. And, your mixer might have conversions going on internally.

2) Wrong. The Driverack is digital, and the amp might have A/D and D/A conversion. Going digital through the entire signal path reduces noise, latency and unnecessary conversions.

3) Sorry, Bruce, but anything digital is basically a computer. So, your Driverack is definitely a "computer" and your mixer and amps are most likely, also.

While you are extremely happy with your current set-up, it is way more digital than you might know.

Ok Phatboy, I'm a'callin' yer hand!

1. Nope - the driverack has no digital in or out, nor do the Crown amps.

2. Nope - I was right. It is and has to be analog - see #1 above. I said that conversion was going on in the driverack and maybe in the amps.

3. I said I have no computers on the front end - that would before the mixer. Front end meaning source material and whatever generates that material.

I know that my board, driverack, and my amps have computers to one degree or another - but there is no way to connect 'em digitally.


Hell, I just got home from a noon-2pm sound gig.....I had the Presonus tied to my laptop via firewire, laptop to router via RJ45, and router to my iPad via clean, South Texas atmosphere.

So, yeah - even though I'm a backwoods hick .....I am aware that I've got some of them there computer thingies around.

I even knows how to work that there innerweb thing.