Advice on starting over...

[bcampbell]

I've lurked in the forums for a couple of years and have always received good advice, so I'm back for more. Here is my current situation:

5 piece rock band
Drums, 2x guitar, 4 vocals, bass. Mic everything.
In ears for bass and two guitars, both drummer and lead singer have their own power monitors
Stage volume varies. (Read below)
Yamaha EMX-5000 mixer (Powered mixer, with a crossover that functions ok, 7 band eq,I run the low freq. output to a separate amp for the subs, powered mixer takes care of the tops)
Carvin DCM-1000 I use one channel of this to power the subs, the limiter button is engaged, second channel is unused.
2 Otop12
2 T39 with BP102

My problems
The drummer and lead singer use the same mix for monitors-not a problem.
The guitar players are increasingly becoming a problem. They want their own independent mix in their in-ears. I use a headphone amp currently, the two guitars and bass get one aux mix, the drummer and vocalist get the other aux mix.
So unless there is another solution, I need at least three aux (I only have two).

The guitarists are seemingly incapable of grasping the idea of controlling stage volume. I.e. The clean channel is louder than the distorted channel, and the solo boost pedals clip the channel. They adjust based on their in-ears between songs. It is just a nightmare. I can't play and adjust the sliders at the same time. At the last show, I just adjusted both of them so their solos would barely clip but the rest wasn't loud enough. They'd turn up and I'd move the slider down. Basically, they don't get it. Probably can't fix this with equipment.

The mixer we have, which is great, doesn't have enough xlr inputs to mic the drummer.

There isn't any compression on anything except on my bass amp.

My thinking is to sell some of the gear (not the speakers) and pick up something different to get 1. More inputs 2. More aux sends 3. compression, mainly for drums, but might need some for vocals.

I live near SF so there is quite a bit of used gear on craiglist. I'm open for suggestions but trying to stay around $1K.

Thanks in advance.

Brian

[BrentEvans]

Good news is that you're a perfect candidate for a digital mixer. The bad news is that doing that for $1000 is goign to be a bit dicey. The cheapest point of entry for you is probably going to be the Presonus 16.4.2, which would give you the same number of mic pres now, and it has all the processing and effects you need (except a crossover). The $1800 price point for what you get is a fantastic deal. If you want more channels, you can step up to the 24.4.2 for a bit more.

You'll need to add a crossover, something like a Driverack PX should do quite nicely. The DCM1000 can drive the Otops on one side, and the T39 on the other side.

That should put you at about $2000, maybe less if you can find a deal somewhere. If you can get a few hundred for the mixer, you'd be just a little over your price point (assuming that's money out of pocket, not total money spent).

[Gregory East]

How come the guitarists need to make gross adjustments after it's been levelled? Can you make do with a guitar-centric mix for your one in the meantime so they leave it out?

[Bruce Weldy]

How come the guitarists need to make gross adjustments after it's been levelled?

Why does the sun shine?

Why does the wind blow?

Some questions can't be answered....just dealt with.

[bcampbell]

Brent - I looked into one of those. It is a bit beyond my price point currently. There is a used 16.0.2 in cl right now for $800, but I'm not sure of the difference between the 16.4.2 and the used one. I also thought the driverack px was for powered speakers and the driverack pa was for unpowered.


Gregory - the problem is with how they level. The amp volume isn't consistent from one pedal/channel to the next. So, to use a 1-10 scale for the volume coming out of their amp might be Guitar 1: clean 7, distorted 5, and solo 10 and Guitar 2: clean 6, distorted 8, and solo 10. So if I set the PA gain for guitar 1 a hair below the clipping level for clean, the solo clips it and the distorted isn't loud enough. Same for guitar 2. But in the monitor mix, guitar 1 wants more him and less guitar 2. Guitar 2 wants more him and less guitar 1. So if anyone has a effective method for helping explain this to them, I'll give it a shot. I think if they fix their volume coming from the amp, we can get by with one mix for the stringed instruments.

[BrentEvans]

Brent - I looked into one of those. It is a bit beyond my price point currently. There is a used 16.0.2 in cl right now for $800, but I'm not sure of the difference between the 16.4.2 and the used one. I also thought the driverack px was for powered speakers and the driverack pa was for unpowered.

The 16.0.2 only has 12 preamps... not enough for a fully mic'd band.

You might want to keep an eye on the X32 line from Behringer. They are supposed releasing a few smaller-format digital mixers in the next few months. Given that the big boy 32 channel job is $2800, maybe the smaller ones will be more in your ballpark.

Just to note... you won't get much cheaper with the number of channels you need. If you already have an iPad, you can get the Mackie DL1608, which would do the trick too... it's $999, but you have to bring your own iPad to make it work.

The PX is a 2-way unit, the PA is a 3 way. The PX is marketed for powered cabs, but a processor is a processor. Your system doesn't require a 3 way crossover, and all the other functionality is basically the same. No reason to spend the extra dough on the PA+ if you're on a budget.

[Bruce Weldy]

Presonus just came out with their 32 channel studiolive.....that should result in the 16.4.2 and 24.4.2 boards coming down in price on the used market as people upgrade to the new one.

Hold out for the 16.4.2 if you can - it is well worth it. 6 auxes, plus 31 band graphic EQ on each of those auxes - not only do they get their own mix, you can EQ it differently for each one.

[Harley]

Presonus just came out with their 32 channel studiolive.....that should result in the 16.4.2 and 24.4.2 boards coming down in price on the used market as people upgrade to the new one.

Hold out for the 16.4.2 if you can - it is well worth it. 6 auxes, plus 31 band graphic EQ on each of those auxes - not only do they get their own mix, you can EQ it differently for each one.

That's good news!

[wallywally]

Yamaha 01v may work for you with an expansion card.

[guitarkeys.com]

Granted Digital Boards are nice, but they will not "fix" you issue.

Lots of boards have 4 and 6 auxes and you can get them very reasonable.

The real issue is that certain members of your band don't know what they are doing, or what they are doing to everyone one else in the band and audience.

You can try to have a sit down and explain how what they are doing is screwing up the FOH and making the band sound bad and see if anyone is willing to listen and change the way they work. If they are not, no amount of equipment is going to fix the bad process.

Best of luck.

[Gregory East]

Yup, the fix depends entirely on the guitarists getting their shit together. There is no gear fix for it. I would be so tempted to go out and buy a $50 compressor/limiter just to teach them a lesson. If they run into it they sound like arse, show goes on.

[bcampbell]

Thanks for all the advice. We're recording a practice today with two overhead mics and I'm not going to do much with the levels of the guitarists. If they are too loud or too quiet, they will be able to hear it in the recording. I'm hoping the drummer and the singer will give them hell for it too.

As far as gear, that Mackie 1608 looks pretty sweet. I've got an iPad and i'd much prefer that over a menu system in a lcd. I like the simplicity of it over the personus, but that decision isn't final.

If I get the Mackie, I'd need to get a crossover if I want to use the amp I have. I'm tempted to sell the amp and get an amp with a crossover like one of the Crowns. I'm hesitant about getting anything with the DSP such as the xti or the driverack as I've just enough knowledge to make me dangerous. How important is DSP in my situation?

[sine143]

ugh, we are so close to having audio nirvana.

just watched these vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2H49LMa ... e=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uk8fYMH ... e=youtu.be

in he first vid, he demonstrates that there is eq on the inputs, including a hp. however, said hp is only 18 db/oct........ I understand steeper slopes take more processing power, but cmon, its an ipad.... second vid demonstrates that there is indeed full limiting on every output, which is a plus (also compression on inputs too), but I wish they would have included a crossever section along with that 31 band geq, allowing one to easily set up top speakers out of the main stereo outs plus aux fed subs, leaving you 5 aux channels for wedges.

thankfully... it is just an ipad app, and HOPEFULLY, we'll see this type of stuff added for no additional charge

this does give me a lot hope for the next year in live sound solutions though.

[Bruce Weldy]

I've got an iPad and i'd much prefer that over a menu system in a lcd. I like the simplicity of it over the personus, but that decision isn't final.

Actually, the only thing that you use the lcd for in the Presonus is setting up your effects (one time) and some system stuff that you don't touch after the first time you pull it out of the box. All controls are tactile - knobs, buttons, faders. You will spend way more time messing with menus on the Mackie than you every would on the Presonus.

The Presonus is extremely easy to use for someone that has used an analog board......as an old school guy - I like to touch a knob, not a screen. I can mix a 4 hour gig and never look at the screen.....

Just want to make sure you have all the facts.......and yes, I'm a cheerleader for the StudioLive boards. I truly believe it's the best digital option for weekend warriors that need more than a handful of inputs.

[BrentEvans]

Just want to make sure you have all the facts.......and yes, I'm a cheerleader for the StudioLive boards. I truly believe it's the best digital option for weekend warriors that need more than a handful of inputs.

That may be the case for now, but both Behringer and Soundcraft are shipping 16 channel units (as well as larger) which are going to put the Presonus quite to bed.