It seems that England has fallen apart.

[Dave Non-Zero]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

what an incredibly depressing week for Britain. Unbelievable. I don't know what else to say. Friends of mine are hiding in ther houses at this moment tonight, posting on facebook of watching gangs of masked thugs roam the streets and set fire to shops just down the road from them.
I'm currently doing sound for an touring English hardcore band that is absolutely furious about the situation and I find that so invigorating. Let's hope noone else dies tonight from ignorance, stupidity, selfishness, and an insane culture of violence and thievery.

[bzb]

I hope you all stay safe. That's some scary stuff, people can do some ridiculous things when they get into a frenzied mob.

Honest question here, not to get too political... but does this make the British think differently about gun control?

[Dave Non-Zero]

Good question. Seems to be definately not. We would rather they got a good kicking than have guns. I think we understand that guns just lead to an escalation which can't be won.

Can't help feeling that if this was the US, there would already have been automatic weapons used and dozens of deaths. And that would be far more scary.

[Bruce Weldy]

Good question. Seems to be definately not. We would rather they got a good kicking than have guns. I think we understand that guns just lead to an escalation which can't be won.

Can't help feeling that if this was the US, there would already have been automatic weapons used and dozens of deaths. And that would be far more scary.

It's exactly because of guns that this doesn't happen in the US.....especially in concealed-carry states. You never know who might be packing.

Automatic weapons are illegal and harder to come by. You probably mean semi-automatic.

Switzerland requires every household to own a gun.....very little crime there.

[Dave Non-Zero]

Switzerland is also a very affluent country, and we all know crime and violence follow sociology economic lines.

[Dave Non-Zero]

Hmm, it seems switzerland is 8th in this chart.... UK is where?


The gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in 1994 by country were as follows:

U.S.A. 14.24
Brazil 12.95
Mexico 12.69
Estonia 12.26
Argentina 8.93
Northern Ireland 6.63
Finland 6.46
Switzerland 5.31
France 5.15
Canada 4.31
Norway 3.82
Austria 3.70
Portugal 3.20
Israel 2.91
Belgium 2.90
Australia 2.65
Slovenia 2.60
Italy 2.44
New Zealand 2.38
Denmark 2.09
Sweden 1.92
Kuwait 1.84
Greece 1.29
Germany 1.24
Hungary 1.11
Ireland 0.97
Spain 0.78
Netherlands 0.70
Scotland 0.54
England and Wales 0.41
Taiwan 0.37
Singapore 0.21
Mauritius 0.19
Hong Kong 0.14
South Korea 0.12
Japan 0.05
Health officials believe that guns in the U.S.could become the leading cause of death attributed to injury by the year 2003, surpassing injuries due to motor vehicle crashes.

[Bruce Weldy]

The interesting thing about the stats in the US is that the highest per capita deaths occur on cities and states with the most strict gun-control laws. Which makes my point - law abiding citizens with guns keep the bad guys thinking a little more about what they do. In Chicago or New York, the bad guys know that no one will have the ability to stop 'em.

Anyway, that's all my politics for tonight.

One last interesting point - in an article I just read about Switzerland, their problem isn't so much with people shooting other people, but suicide. And those are counted as gun-related deaths.

[cheapbasslovin]

The interesting thing about the stats in the US is that the highest per capita deaths occur on cities and states with the most strict gun-control laws.

Where are you getting that data, because I don't think that is true. At least not so cut and dried as you presented it. I just looked at some data about deaths per 100,000 and generally speaking most of the top 25 states were states in the southeast and midwest/ mountain region, not known for strict gun control. I didn't delve into comparing economic affluence, specific gun control laws for each state so nothing I'm saying is a conclusive counter argument.

FWIW, I'm not an abolish guns guy or anywhere near this, but I don't think a gun in every household is going to reduce gun deaths, either.

Data is from 2002.
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mu ... er-100-000

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The interesting thing about the stats in the US is that the highest per capita deaths occur on cities and states with the most strict gun-control laws.

That's because those locales have the highest crime rates, and gun control laws were enacted in a futile effort to control crime via feel-good legislation rather than fix the underlying reasons why the crime rates are so high. The good news is that the primary users of these illegal guns, criminals, tend to use them mainly on each other.

law abiding citizens with guns keep the bad guys thinking a little more about what they do.

The bad news is that legal guns tend to be used not to kill criminals but family members.

In Chicago or New York, the bad guys know that no one will have the ability to stop 'em.

I can't say about Chicago, but New York is now one of the safest cities to live in. Not because homeowners have guns, but because Giuliani took the cops out of squad cars and put them back pounding a beat. Thinking that a potential victim might be carrying is far less a deterrent to crime than seeing a cop on every block.

[Bryson]

watching gangs of masked thugs roam the streets and set fire to shops just down the road from them.

If this was happening down the street from me, I'd much rather have a firearm than not have an option. If they were illegal here and I could not have one, i'd be looking for the next best thing.

It's sad but the cops are facing budget cuts, they are not going to always going to be around to protect. Making firearms illegal won't keep them out of the hands of criminals. Beyond firearms, there are many other weapons available. When it comes down to it, I'd much rather have the option to protect my family. Personally, I've never seen any full auto gun battles in the streets or escalated gun fights.

[Dan30]

The interesting thing about the stats in the US is that the highest per capita deaths occur on cities and states with the most strict gun-control laws.

That's because those locales have the highest crime rates, and gun control laws were enacted in a futile effort to control crime via feel-good legislation rather than fix the underlying reasons why the crime rates are so high. The good news is that the primary users of these illegal guns, criminals, tend to use them mainly on each other.

law abiding citizens with guns keep the bad guys thinking a little more about what they do.

The bad news is that legal guns tend to be used not to kill criminals but family members.

In Chicago or New York, the bad guys know that no one will have the ability to stop 'em.

I can't say about Chicago, but New York is now one of the safest cities to live in. Not because homeowners have guns, but because Giuliani took the cops out of squad cars and put them back pounding a beat. Thinking that a potential victim might be carrying is far less a deterrent to crime than seeing a cop on every block.

I'm with Bill on all points.

[Dave Non-Zero]

I'm with bill on all points too.

And also, if it was happening down the street from me, I would rather know that the hundred rioters didnt have guns, than have one myself.

Plus it was a guy with a gun that got shot by the police that started this whole thing off.

[DJPhatman]

Interesting tidbit that is related to all points of view: Amazon UK has just reported a 5000% increase in aluminum baseball bats, and police-style batons. Yes, children, that is five thousand percent!

[Dan30]

Interesting tidbit that is related to all points of view: Amazon UK has just reported a 5000% increase in aluminum baseball bats, and police-style batons. Yes, children, that is five thousand percent!

Finally England is gaining interest in baseball!

[UROK]

Kevin Cahill in "Who Owns Britain?" presents interesting data: 65% of the landmass of UK can be turned to a profit. Of that percentage over 95% is in the hands of around 180,000 families.

Don't believe the hype. What is happening in GB right now is because of this.

The current Conservative government, the political wing of the landowning class, will divide and conquer using media hyperbole to turn the middle class in fear of the workers and disenfranchised.

Home Secretary Theresa Jowell called it "sheer criminality". Prime Minister David Cameron, himself the archetypal product of Eton and Oxford out of touch privilege, called the rioters "sick".

Dehumanizing those whom you misunderstand is a basic premise of all antisocial argument.

Expect more Draconian British lawmaking in the near future on top of the massive erosion of civil liberties in the wake of terrorist fear mongering and the introduction of CCTV.