Scaling way back! Lots of questions

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#16 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:15 pm Oooo thanks for the tip on the white duratex!
Wonder how much it would show dirt?

I’ve been reading lots of reviews on the SLAs and they sure have lots of good things said about them. I did read one comment from Bill that mentioned the SLA may be similar in performance to one DR200 but needs all those drivers per cab to do so, where of course the DR only needs the single 8. Does cost become a factor here if we’re talking premium drivers? Perhaps driver cost is a side effect of the simplicity of the cabinet design? Wonder what the cost / labor / performance factor is between the DR200, SLA, Jack 10 lite and the Otop 8?
Guess Bill answers that on the main page with the build difficulty vs performance. Seems like the Otop 8 and SLA win in that arena.
What about audience coverage? My DRs have such amazing throw! You can really hear them far away, especially when stacked. I understand that whatever path I choose will not equal three DR200s per side, but something as close to one DR per side would be nice.
I think the DR200 is the least expensive to build in that line up.
The plans for the SLA list the Alpha 6 as the recommended driver and no recommendation for a premium driver. So, that puts driver cost for a pair at $440... plus a dozen tweeters
The premuim driver for the Otop8 is the Delta Pro 8a (looks like they may have been discontinued, but Amazon is showing 7 in stock). Driver cost for a pair of cabs... also $440 + tweeters
There is an "ultra premium" recommendation for the Otop8, the Faital Pro 8PR210... at about $175 each it puts driver cost at $700 + tweeters for a pair of cabs
The J10lite's premium driver recommendation is the Deltalite II 2510, two of those will cost $280 + tweets

I'm pretty sure they will all have roughly the same output potential, with the exception of the Faital option in an Otop8 having more peak potential.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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J_Dunavin
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#17 Post by J_Dunavin »

Is that a Fatal pro in the plans? I only ask because I’m curious what the voltage limit would be on those guys.

In the whole scaling down plan here I’m also thinking about selling off my Peavey IPS amplifiers. They are rock solid for sure and have never gave me any issues, but I could go a whole lot lighter and less rack space with a newer amp.
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#18 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:18 pm Is that a Fatal pro in the plans? I only ask because I’m curious what the voltage limit would be on those guys.

In the whole scaling down plan here I’m also thinking about selling off my Peavey IPS amplifiers. They are rock solid for sure and have never gave me any issues, but I could go a whole lot lighter and less rack space with a newer amp.
The OTop8 plans wrote:For maximum output a premium upgrade is the Faital Pro 8PR210, which has twice the excursion of the Eminence drivers.
No mention of voltage limits in the high frequency cab plans. Pretty sure it's because you can hear distortion in the tops and will know when to pull it back, where it's much less evident in the subs (especially so for horns).
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#19 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:15 pm Oooo thanks for the tip on the white duratex!
Wonder how much it would show dirt?
I wondered the same thing. I think I'd opt for a smoother texture finish to make it easy to wipe down with cleaner and a rag/paper towels. Maybe even try the "leather" looking method of application. DuraTex "Leather"
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#20 Post by Seth »

Correction on the power requirements I mentioned earlier, about the SLA Pro requiring twice the power to match a DR200... it would likely need at least 4x the power.

So, 400 in an SLA Pro (not sure it would take that and remain clean or not) instead of 100(ish) in a DR200
Last edited by Seth on Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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J_Dunavin
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#21 Post by J_Dunavin »

But the Otop8 and Jack 10 lite? How will they compare on power requirements?
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#22 Post by J_Dunavin »

Whatcha think fellas, how much can we shrink this 😄
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2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#23 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:48 pm But the Otop8 and Jack 10 lite? How will they compare on power requirements?
Let's look at the charts

Image
Image
Image
Image

I'll discuss it more tomorrow. But, note that the OTop8 is a 4 ohm cab, so it's also important to note if you want to run 2 on one amp channel, it will present a 2 Ohm (nominal) to the amplifier. And since these charts were all done at 2.83v, you can subtract 3dB from the Otop8 trace to account for it having twice the power... even though, volt for volt the trace is what you'll actually get with a given amplifier. Sorry if that's confusing.

Funny(ish) side story...
I accidentally put a 55 volt limited, high passed, recorded music signal into my pair of shorty 2x6 SLA Pro's... on the limiter. It scared the crap outta me. They were screaming for sure, although not overly distorted... just not entirely clean either. Was only on that way for a second or two before I was able to correct the mistake. No harm done. Except, maybe to my under shorts.
Last edited by Seth on Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#24 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:18 pm Whatcha think fellas, how much can we shrink this 😄
That's pretty bad ass :metal:
Another question you may consider is; how can we grow your audience to necessitate all that awesomeness? !!
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#25 Post by Seth »

Image
Image
Image
Image

So, volt for volt, the OT8 is right there with the DR200. Although the OT8, being a 4 ohm cab, results in it consuming twice the power to make the same output, whatever level that output is. Quiet, moderate, or high.

The 4x6 SLA Pro is, on average, down about 5-6dB from the OT8 and DR200. 6dB is twice the voltage (or 4 times the power needed to match the DR and 2 times the power to match the OT8 (because the OT8 is 4 ohms)) to produce an equal output level. Again... quiet, moderate, or high volume.

The Jack looks like it averages 101-102ish, down about 4-5dB from the DR200. But it's down considerably at the low/high crossover point compared to the SLA Pro, about 3dB. It would require twice the power that the SLA Pro would in that region, which could potentially be a limiting factor when comparing PEAK output potential. Design enough headroom in the system an it wont matter. Try to run a big show on a small system and it could potentially be a limiting factor.

Note to readers: I am not a pro. I do like crunching numbers though. If you see something off, please speak up.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#26 Post by Grant Bunter »

J,
My 2c worth
I reckon you should remove the Jacks from the decision.
While they can be used as tops with subs, they are not dedicated top boxes.
They don't perform as well as any of the other contenders you've mentioned as well.

For me, the Jacks are allrounders, and consequently master of none.
From a weight point of view, I get it, from a performance point of view, I don't.
And if you're thinking that the odd full range no sub gig lends itself to the Jacks, well, do 1 sub and one of the dedicated top boxes instead IMHO...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#27 Post by J_Dunavin »

Thanks guys.
Ya I agree about the Jack and am really leaning towards the Otop 8 I think loaded with the fatal pro premium drivers and whatever premium compression horn drivers, bi amped will be a pretty sweet set up.
I’m also really leaning towards selling off all the T45s and building two, slim, T48s. Sure do love the 3012lf kappalite, but if there is something more premium for those as well, plus a v plate I think will rock pretty good.
So now it’s a question of what’s the best of the best driver options here. How can I maximize two Otop8s and two slim T48s ? By slim I’m thinking 18” wide. One will fit in my back seat still for smaller gigs and of course two will be no problem in the 4x8 trailer.
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#28 Post by Seth »

Thought I'd mention... size wise, the OT8 is larger than the OT12. It's just designed to be narrow and taller instead of wide and shorter.

OT12 - 22 inches wide x 15 inches high x 18 inches deep... 3.44cubic feet
OT8 - 16 inches wide, 22 inches high, 18 inches deep... 3.67 cubic feet

Guessing the OT12 would weigh less too, especially loaded with the 3012HO with a driver weight of 7lbs vs a pair of Delta Pro 8A's weighing in at 20lbs total (10 each). The Faital Pro's are 9.5 each.
Last edited by Seth on Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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J_Dunavin
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#29 Post by J_Dunavin »

Ahh I think I like the form factor of the Otop8 better.
Does the two 8s have any advantage over the single 12 in terms of audience coverage?
2 - OTop8
2 - T39
8 - DR200
2 - DR250
9 - T24
6 - T45
1 - Auto Tuba

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Seth
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Re: Scaling way back! Lots of questions

#30 Post by Seth »

J_Dunavin wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:43 pm Ahh I think I like the form factor of the Otop8 better.
Does the two 8s have any advantage over the single 12 in terms of audience coverage?
Out of my realm. Bill?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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