What's to chat about?

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1096 Post by Seth » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:35 pm

CarterKraft wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:55 pm
I prefer the video of this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP3OJUk001k
I agree. There used to be a version on youtube that was the Hombre's audio over John Cougar Mellencamps video. Can't find it. Must have been removed for some reason. :(


Bruce, I completely agree. One of the hottest girls I've ever seen. Too bad she's like a million years old now. :lol: That video says her name is "Lisa Leonard Dalton", but I think it may actually be Liz Brewer... not that it matters. She'd be hot if her name was Frank.


Here's another cute dancer girl I found rather charming.
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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1097 Post by Seth » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:47 pm

Rich4349 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:33 am
Here ya go Seth. I think you'd have a lot to talk about with StyroPyro, the laser boy genius. He does go on a bit long with the cooking jokes, but his understanding of electronics and chemistry is admirable. No, DON'T try this yourself at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM9hYzJnao0
Forgot to respond to this. Sorry about that Rich. I had watched that just the day before. I guess the YouTube algorithm has got me and you in the same grouping. The kid's a smarty, for sure. I really dig science related content. Cody's Lab is another I watch occasionally along with Smarter Every Day. Cody has a lot of chemistry knowledge and has done a lot of interesting chemistry based vids along with some mining and other outdoorsy stuff.

All those guys eclipse my understanding of the world we live in by a large margin. I seem to have more questions than answers. Thanks for the compliment Rich. :thumbsup:


Cody's Lab
Smarter Every Day

This Old Tony is an awesome channel too. High on the entertainment value and tongue in cheek humor.
And Wesley Treat is darn near a creative genius in creating cool stuff out of stuff too.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1098 Post by Seth » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:22 am

Tall Evan's post in Grey Owl's thread reminded me of a "problem" I had experienced while mixing live a couple times. I just did a search on it, but didn't turn up any relevant results.

During indoor rehearsals, no issue. But, live outdoors with full PA at show volume, the bassist (standard hardbody 4 string electric bass, flat wound strings) and rhythm guitar (deep body acoustic 12 string Ovation) had to mute their strings between songs to keep them from... I don't know... auto-exciting? I assume it's a form of feedback. The first time it occurred, it caught us all off guard. I've read about acoustic guitars and acoustic bass guitars feeding back and possible solutions for the Ovation. But, haven't been able to find anything on hardbody bass.

In the two or three times it's occurred, the bassist was less than 6 feet from the subs with no option to put more space between them. Signal was DI'd from an out on his amp.

Is this something you guys have dealt with? Is there anything I can do on my end, as the sound guy, to eliminate or reduce the condition? Or, is it just a thing I've got to remind the guys of before going live?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

CarterKraft
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1099 Post by CarterKraft » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:53 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:40 pm
CarterKraft wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:55 pm
I prefer the video of this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP3OJUk001k
Oh, but the all-time great was this one......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmoPIG ... eHouseInc.
:loler:
Exactly!

Side note I had no idea 90's rap videos copied 60's bands.

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1100 Post by CarterKraft » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:00 am

Seth wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:47 pm
Rich4349 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:33 am
Here ya go Seth. I think you'd have a lot to talk about with StyroPyro, the laser boy genius. He does go on a bit long with the cooking jokes, but his understanding of electronics and chemistry is admirable. No, DON'T try this yourself at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM9hYzJnao0
Forgot to respond to this. Sorry about that Rich. I had watched that just the day before. I guess the YouTube algorithm has got me and you in the same grouping. The kid's a smarty, for sure. I really dig science related content. Cody's Lab is another I watch occasionally along with Smarter Every Day. Cody has a lot of chemistry knowledge and has done a lot of interesting chemistry based vids along with some mining and other outdoorsy stuff.

All those guys eclipse my understanding of the world we live in by a large margin. I seem to have more questions than answers. Thanks for the compliment Rich. :thumbsup:


Cody's Lab
Smarter Every Day

This Old Tony is an awesome channel too. High on the entertainment value and tongue in cheek humor.
And Wesley Treat is darn near a creative genius in creating cool stuff out of stuff too.

I like those channels too.
I hope This Old Tony gets back soon from his family health issue and it turns out ok.

SV Seeker is a good one, 9+ year steel sailboat build in the front yard of a house in Tulsa, OK.
Spoiler he has it 90% and its at the port waiting to get in the water due to insurance issues.

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1101 Post by Seth » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:43 am

CarterKraft wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:00 am
I like those channels too.
I hope This Old Tony gets back soon from his family health issue and it turns out ok.

SV Seeker is a good one, 9+ year steel sailboat build in the front yard of a house in Tulsa, OK.
Spoiler he has it 90% and its at the port waiting to get in the water due to insurance issues.
I was wondering why TOT hasn't put up any videos in the last 6 months. I hope he gets back soon too!

I'll check those others out, thanks for the recommendations!

There are few sailing channels I follow from time to time, if that's in your wheelhouse (hahaha)...

Sailing La Vagabonde (great adventures all over the world)
SV Delos
Wildlings Sailing


This quirky guy, Jaimie Mantzel, bought a completely off the grid unimproved island in Panama and has built his own home and several boats, nearly all from scrap. He's got a lot of quirky video history, but I find the stuff from the past 5 or so years to be the most interesting and entertaining. It's amazing what can be done with a little ingenuity and willingness to try things out.

Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1102 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:31 pm

Seth wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:22 am
Tall Evan's post in Grey Owl's thread reminded me of a "problem" I had experienced while mixing live a couple times. I just did a search on it, but didn't turn up any relevant results.

During indoor rehearsals, no issue. But, live outdoors with full PA at show volume, the bassist (standard hardbody 4 string electric bass, flat wound strings) and rhythm guitar (deep body acoustic 12 string Ovation) had to mute their strings between songs to keep them from... I don't know... auto-exciting? I assume it's a form of feedback. The first time it occurred, it caught us all off guard. I've read about acoustic guitars and acoustic bass guitars feeding back and possible solutions for the Ovation. But, haven't been able to find anything on hardbody bass.

In the two or three times it's occurred, the bassist was less than 6 feet from the subs with no option to put more space between them. Signal was DI'd from an out on his amp.

Is this something you guys have dealt with? Is there anything I can do on my end, as the sound guy, to eliminate or reduce the condition? Or, is it just a thing I've got to remind the guys of before going live?
I've definitely experienced this before. More times than not, it's the A string/Note that caused it. You didn't say if you had bass and acoustic coming through the monitors - I'm assuming you did for the acoustic. The root cause is EQ. Every time you mix, you should:

High pass every channel - period! Even bass and kick. I typically high pass those at 40 or even higher if inside. Acoustic guitar - get it way up there......minimum 100hz up to 200hz if it needs it.

High pass the monitor sends every time. If there is a bass amp on stage, then nobody needs much bottom end in the monitors - high pass 'em between 80-100hz.

EQ your mains properly - have a couple of test songs that you know well. Listen carefully to the bottom end to make sure is isn't muddy. And some bottom-heavy grunge stuff is not what you want to test with. Use something that really lets you hear the bottom end and pick out the nasties.....

If all that is done properly, you will most likely have no problems....but, if it does - get the bass player to help you identify what note is causing the problem, then notch that frequency with a parametric EQ on the channel and/or monitor and/or mains until it goes away.

Occasionally, it will happen in the middle of a show and it's intermittent. On bass is still easier to find by watching his hands to see what note is causing the problem. On acoustic, it's harder. But, if your mixer has RTA built in, try to find it by watching for spikes.

Now, if this is just a problem with the acoustic guitar player taking his hands off the strings and it starts to feedback - then try moving the monitor and more of an angle to the guitar, turn down, high pass channel and monitor sends.

Earlier this year, I mixed a gig at an outdoor venue that I've mixed many times. Sound check went great, everything was fine. Started the show and the lead singer's acoustic started feeding back....what the hell!??? The only thing that had changed is that the sliding door on the back of the all metal back wall of the stage was open during sound check and it was closed when they started. Next time were there, we sound checked with the door closed.

It's the little things that will get ya'.......

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1103 Post by Seth » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:17 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:31 pm
I've definitely experienced this before. More times than not, it's the A string/Note that caused it. You didn't say if you had bass and acoustic coming through the monitors - I'm assuming you did for the acoustic. The root cause is EQ. Every time you mix, you should:

High pass every channel - period! Even bass and kick. I typically high pass those at 40 or even higher if inside. Acoustic guitar - get it way up there......minimum 100hz up to 200hz if it needs it.

High pass the monitor sends every time. If there is a bass amp on stage, then nobody needs much bottom end in the monitors - high pass 'em between 80-100hz.

EQ your mains properly - have a couple of test songs that you know well. Listen carefully to the bottom end to make sure is isn't muddy. And some bottom-heavy grunge stuff is not what you want to test with. Use something that really lets you hear the bottom end and pick out the nasties.....

If all that is done properly, you will most likely have no problems....but, if it does - get the bass player to help you identify what note is causing the problem, then notch that frequency with a parametric EQ on the channel and/or monitor and/or mains until it goes away.

Occasionally, it will happen in the middle of a show and it's intermittent. On bass is still easier to find by watching his hands to see what note is causing the problem. On acoustic, it's harder. But, if your mixer has RTA built in, try to find it by watching for spikes.

Now, if this is just a problem with the acoustic guitar player taking his hands off the strings and it starts to feedback - then try moving the monitor and more of an angle to the guitar, turn down, high pass channel and monitor sends.

Earlier this year, I mixed a gig at an outdoor venue that I've mixed many times. Sound check went great, everything was fine. Started the show and the lead singer's acoustic started feeding back....what the hell!??? The only thing that had changed is that the sliding door on the back of the all metal back wall of the stage was open during sound check and it was closed when they started. Next time were there, we sound checked with the door closed.

It's the little things that will get ya'.......
As always, great information Bruce. I really appreciate you sharing your experience. :thumbsup:

The times it was an issue, it occurred between songs, when no one is playing and the lead vocalist would chat a little before playing the next song. It wasn't noticeable or apparent while playing the songs.

I typically highpass everything except the Kick and Bass at 125Hz or higher and these shows were completely IEM, no stage monitors. Although, the proximity of the main PA to the players was also very limited too. Probably no more than 6 feet. To me, it sounds like all the strings on the bass are vibrating, vs just one or one note. Starts off low and nearly inaudible low grumble and slowly grows louder until the strings are muted. The first time it occurred all the band members looked at me with a puzzled WTF look. I'm sure I had the same look. Then the bassist muted and instructed the guitar to mute. Solved for the moment.

Next time I have the chance to, I'll try seeing if I can get some EQ to help. I had also considered just putting the offending instruments on a DCA and attenuate them between songs. But, I've already got my hands full of things to remember to do with instrument changes and muting/unmuting reverb (I forget that one occasionally). Which, if I had more experience, I'd probably just do without thought. So, I'm leaning away from that option at the moment.

I wonder if a gate on those instruments could solve the issue. :idea:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1104 Post by Bruce Weldy » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:51 pm

Seth wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:17 pm

1 The times it was an issue, it occurred between songs, when no one is playing and the lead vocalist would chat a little before playing the next song. It wasn't noticeable or apparent while playing the songs.

2 I typically highpass everything except the Kick and Bass at 125Hz or higher and these shows were completely IEM, no stage monitors.
3 I wonder if a gate on those instruments could solve the issue. :idea:
1 Players should always....always.....always hold their strings between songs. That said, there is still most likely a particular frequency that is getting excited when he lets go. I'm guessing it's probably somewhere between 125-400hz. And guess what? That's the area that most often needs attenuating in the mains. That's the low-mid mud.

2 High pass the Kick and Bass too. No reason to let stage rumble get into your mix when there's nothing that you need down there anyway. Try high passing the Kick at 40 and the Bass at 50......you'll be surprised how much it cleans up the bottom end. Still a lot of punch, but none of the garbage. Then you can adjust as you go.

If you are miking hat and ride (you should - that's the timekeepers of the set and will really make your mix shine compared to those who don't mic 'em), you can high pass those up to 500 or better. Keeps 'em tight and crisp. Try it - it's like sprinkles on your vanilla ice cream.

3 As far as gates......Kick drum and Toms - absolutely! Every time, all the time. That's the only way to really clean up a Kick and Toms (especially poorly tuned toms...which is 90% of the time). Even a really well tuned kit can use a little gating to tighten things up. Typically, I'll tighten up the toms during sound check, then as the night goes on, I'll see how they sound in the mix. Often then, I'll let off a little and let 'em ring out a little more.

Now, as to gates on Bass? No. Typically never need to. Guitars....well, maybe - but you have to be really careful - if the player has good dynamics, you'll end up cutting them out of the mix at times and have it coming in and out....very ugly. Not to mention cutting off the end of a note as it is decaying. Same with vocals - they can disappear on a quiet passage and you'll hear it cutting off cymbals, etc that are leaking through...it will sound unnatural. I'm strictly Kick and Toms as far as gates. If the drummer beats the snare drum like a rented mule every time he hits it, then you can use a gate if the snare really sucks with a long ring....otherwise, never.

I'd suggest that you spend more time on getting the system EQed better. You'd be surprised how much easier the mix comes together if you aren't fighting the PA and the room on every channel.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Tom Smit
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1105 Post by Tom Smit » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:45 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:31 pm
The only thing that had changed is that the sliding door on the back of the all metal back wall of the stage was open during sound check and it was closed when they started. Next time were there, we sound checked with the door closed.
SHUT THE FR .....:shock: ...... :shock: ...... BACK DOOR!


:lol:
TomS

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1106 Post by Bruce Weldy » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:33 am

Tom Smit wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:45 pm
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:31 pm
The only thing that had changed is that the sliding door on the back of the all metal back wall of the stage was open during sound check and it was closed when they started. Next time were there, we sound checked with the door closed.
SHUT THE FR .....:shock: ...... :shock: ...... BACK DOOR!


:lol:
It's a very popular venue and is packed every night. But, the outdoor stage backs up to the parking lot of a Dry Cleaning business. The Cleaners allow bands to park there and load in through the back of the stage. Kinda' strange, but very convenient. The back of the stage looks like it was once part of a rail car. You enter through a big sliding metal door.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1107 Post by Seth » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:30 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:51 pm
...Players should always....always.....always hold their strings between songs...
I have a list of set-up notes I keep. I've added all of what you said to the list. And, this little tid-bit confirms what I had suspected. I just didn't want to put the responsibility on their shoulders if it was something I should be addressing and managing on my end. Before now, having them mute their strings occurred to me as a duct tape fix. I'm much more at ease knowing it's a standard practice.

Much appreciated Bruce. :thumbsup:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1108 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:07 pm

Seth wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:30 am
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:51 pm
...Players should always....always.....always hold their strings between songs...
I have a list of set-up notes I keep. I've added all of what you said to the list. And, this little tid-bit confirms what I had suspected. I just didn't want to put the responsibility on their shoulders if it was something I should be addressing and managing on my end. Before now, having them mute their strings occurred to me as a duct tape fix. I'm much more at ease knowing it's a standard practice.

Much appreciated Bruce. :thumbsup:
It's not only to keep feedback at bay......straps break, come of the endpins, etc......I've saved my guitar more than once over the last 50 years by keeping one hand on the guitar at all times.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1109 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:49 pm

Seth wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:22 am
I've read about acoustic guitars and acoustic bass guitars feeding back and possible solutions for the Ovation. But, haven't been able to find anything on hardbody bass.
In the two or three times it's occurred, the bassist was less than 6 feet from the subs with no option to put more space between them. Signal was DI'd from an out on his amp.
That tells me the EQ on the bass channel was AFU. If it's actually going to sound like electric bass it should be high passed at 80Hz to account for the differing response of the PA subs versus the backline bass speakers. Without a doubt the #1 problem in live sound mixing today is guys who don't know what the electric bass is supposed to sound like manning the FOH.

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1110 Post by Seth » Sat Oct 09, 2021 3:55 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Sat Oct 09, 2021 1:49 pm
Seth wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:22 am
I've read about acoustic guitars and acoustic bass guitars feeding back and possible solutions for the Ovation. But, haven't been able to find anything on hardbody bass.
In the two or three times it's occurred, the bassist was less than 6 feet from the subs with no option to put more space between them. Signal was DI'd from an out on his amp.
That tells me the EQ on the bass channel was AFU. If it's actually going to sound like electric bass it should be high passed at 80Hz to account for the differing response of the PA subs versus the backline bass speakers. Without a doubt the #1 problem in live sound mixing today is guys who don't know what the electric bass is supposed to sound like manning the FOH.
Hmmm. I'm certainly not a bass guitar tonal quality connoisseur. That very well could be the case. As best I can recall, I had the main PA tuned flat, but didn't fine tune to taste with any music tracks. I'm fairly certain (but not 100%positive) I didn't adjust the bass guitar channel EQ, other than a 40Hz Highpass, and just let the bassist dial in the tone he liked. He was on a 10" Orange amp in front of him on a tilt back, aimed at his head. I DI'd out of the back of it.


What do you think? This is a direct out recording of the main mix. Is the tone not what it should be?
(video does not match the audio. But, the video is of the same event)



I thought "what a bass guitar should sound like" was a purely subjective thing, every player having their own preferred tone. The old "But what about my tone" deal, when trying to get them to DI... or so I've read.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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