What's to chat about?

[Bruce Weldy]

The options are to either double the sub count and run Delta 12LFA or Basslite S2012 loaded cabs limited at 35v or Bridge the channels and run 3012LF's in less cabs.

It sounds like you are trying to design your system around the amps....it should be the other way around design the system and then get the appropriate amps.

The problem with this amp is manyfold.

It's not designed for Pro sound. It an install amp used for mostly distributed system in office buildings, etc.

It doesn't use standard connectors found in the Pro sound world. Changing out anything on the fly is impossible.

As far as using twice as many under-performing drivers - it's only going to hit 31 volts at it's stated power of 250 watts at 4 ohms.....so it can't even run the cheap drivers to their full potential.

While it can be bridged to 500 watts at 8 ohms - you could get 4 subs on one amp with a small amount of headroom. A QSC GX7 can get you the same thing in two channels with the same footprint - but, it has the proper connectors and is easily resold in the future.

It should run the DR200s with no problem, but it still has all the same issues with the non-standard connectors.

I can honestly say that I have never seen these kind of amps in a portable PA situation. Only in distributed systems in businesses - they are very popular there. The right tool for the job is always worth remembering.

You are an out-of-the-box thinker - and I applaud that.....but, don't get so far out of the box that it's impossible to get back in.

[Seth]

You are an out-of-the-box thinker - and I applaud that.....but, don't get so far out of the box that it's impossible to get back in.

Let's not forget that at the moment this is a daydream system. Yes, I have the amps and (most of) the drivers, but there's no way I can even transport something this scale, let alone other obsticals that make it unreasonable at this time.

It sounds like you are trying to design your system around the amps....it should be the other way around design the system and then get the appropriate amps.

This particular system, yes. I totally am. "Should be" really depends on the goal. I think were speaking to two different goals.

The problem with this amp is manyfold.

It's not designed for Pro sound. It an install amp used for mostly distributed system in office buildings, etc.

It doesn't use standard connectors found in the Pro sound world. Changing out anything on the fly is impossible.

Come on now. Impossible is dirty language that quitters use.

I've already wired in XLR and SpeakOn pigtails to the euroblock connectors. Impossible made possible, I can change anything out on the fly. And this particular model isn't a constant voltage distributed system amplifier. Although, yes, it is intended to be used in permanent installs.

As far as using twice as many under-performing drivers - it's only going to hit 31 volts at it's stated power of 250 watts at 4 ohms.....so it can't even run the cheap drivers to their full potential.

I think calling anything less than a 3012LF "under-performing" is unfair. They perform the way they perform and, in Bills cabs, still outperform many other commercially available options. I bet you could limit your subs to 30 volts and get zero complaints.

The twice as many cabs option was meant to be one per channel, 8 per side of the stage. Where the bridged option, 4 per side of stage. So, the amp would run them up to full potential, 35v.

While it can be bridged to 500 watts at 8 ohms - you could get 4 subs on one amp with a small amount of headroom. A QSC GX7 can get you the same thing in two channels with the same footprint - but, it has the proper connectors and is easily resold in the future.

Was a deal I couldn't pass up. It's what I have. GX7 is a great choice though

The right tool for the job is always worth remembering.

...And sometimes, the right tool is the tool you have.

[himhimself]

Wow, insane deal is right. That's amazing - good job rescuing some awesome hardware. I have a couple crown amps with binding posts, also intended for distributed systems, but with a speakon break out panel on the back of the rack, it's not a problem. Still, what to do with that many channels of juice... ? Oh well,you'll have some fun figuring it out

[Bruce Weldy]

Wow, insane deal is right. That's amazing - good job rescuing some awesome hardware. I have a couple crown amps with binding posts, also intended for distributed systems, but with a speakon break out panel on the back of the rack, it's not a problem. Still, what to do with that many channels of juice... ? Oh well,you'll have some fun figuring it out

Binding posts does not mean distributed systems at all. Most distributed type systems use a Euro block connector or screw terminals for spade connectors as most are running 70 or 100 volt distribution.

Pro gear had in the past, and still has, binding posts for the most part. Especially Crowns. Euro block or Molex type connectors are not found in traveling sound gear. All of my Crowns are hooked up to my patch panels via the binding posts and not the speakons. It's cleaner from a wiring standpoint and less expensive.

[Bruce Weldy]

Seth,

It looks like you have covered the bases on your thinking. I wouldn't use those amps, but sometimes good deals can drive the rest of the build.

As far as under-performing drivers - that wasn't a knock to those drivers, so much as they don't perform as well the better drivers. I've never understood the idea of building twice as many boxes to get the same output as one.

I assumed those were distributive system amps because the first page in the manual lists all the options and most of them are 70, 25, and 100 volts systems......just went back and noticed the specific 8250 model that you have. Why the hell they didn't use industry standard connectors on it is beyond me.....even for an install amp it would have made sense.

Anyway, I'll continue to challenge you and see if you keep coming up with logical answers...even if I don't always agree with them.

[himhimself]

Wow, insane deal is right. That's amazing - good job rescuing some awesome hardware. I have a couple crown amps with binding posts, also intended for distributed systems, but with a speakon break out panel on the back of the rack, it's not a problem. Still, what to do with that many channels of juice... ? Oh well,you'll have some fun figuring it out

Binding posts does not mean distributed systems at all. Most distributed type systems use a Euro block connector or screw terminals for spade connectors as most are running 70 or 100 volt distribution.

Pro gear had in the past, and still has, binding posts for the most part. Especially Crowns. Euro block or Molex type connectors are not found in traveling sound gear. All of my Crowns are hooked up to my patch panels via the binding posts and not the speakons. It's cleaner from a wiring standpoint and less expensive.

Sorry Bruce, probably shouldn't have said "binding posts", what I was meaning was output connectors that aren't speakons. I have a couple CH series Crowns that were primarily designed for building installations. They're a lot like my CE amps, just can't run bridged at less than 8 ohms and have a terminal block for outputs. And they were free

[Bruce Weldy]

Yeah, those type of amps are pretty easy to find cheap. There really isn't a used market for them as most of those kind of installations are hired jobs from A/V companies and they always spec out new gear for 'em.

[Seth]

Seth,

It looks like you have covered the bases on your thinking. I wouldn't use those amps, but sometimes good deals can drive the rest of the build.
Thanks buddy. Yeah, I have it pretty well thought through. For the most part.

As far as under-performing drivers - that wasn't a knock to those drivers, so much as they don't perform as well the better drivers. I've never understood the idea of building twice as many boxes to get the same output as one.
Completely understandable point of view. Any other time I'd be in complete agreement with you.

I assumed those were distributive system amps because the first page in the manual lists all the options and most of them are 70, 25, and 100 volts systems......just went back and noticed the specific 8250 model that you have. Why the hell they didn't use industry standard connectors on it is beyond me.....even for an install amp it would have made sense.

You're right. That's a good point. All the Ashly 2 channel amps I own have XLR's and SpeakOn's, even though they're "install" amplifiers. I think it may have something to do with fitting 8 XLR and 8 SpeakOn's on the back of the amp and also have them reasonably connect to circuitry inside the amp. I opened one up and these babies are chockablock full of cuircuit boards. Like, for real... FULL. Seems to be a reasonable explanation.

Anyway, I'll continue to challenge you and see if you keep coming up with logical answers...even if I don't always agree with them.



It's probably good you bring up the points you do. Especially for the sake of unknown readers learning a bit here and there. My situation and plan with those amps is not usual, and certainly not any sort of recommended solution to recreate. There are more traditional options to achieve the same result.

[Seth]

Panel 10 installed. I also put quarter round between the hand hold holes and bonded 2 pieces to make half round which I glued to the opposite side of the hand hold for a comfortable handling experience. I cut the 6/10 mouth brace and decided to skin it with bondo now while it's easy to get at. Also, laid some bondo down in other various places. Additionally, I filled in voids in the ply with PL.

Getting colse!

[Seth]

I thought I'd have the mouth brace installed today and maybe even the side attached. But, I chose to do some bondo work, filling knots and deep grain in the mouth area while I have easy access to sand and paint the area.

I put bondo around the quarter round in the hand hold and got a real nice comfortable in the hand blending-in. Painted that area and also the back side of panel 11 before installing panel 11.

I had never used the bondo spot putty in the tube before. I know someone here mentioned it's what they like to use. I found that it shrinks a little and didn't fill the deeper wood grain grooves in my crappy wood adequately. But using it as a final skinning after a coat & sanding (or two) of standard bondo gave a good result filling the little blemishes without overly building up too thickly anywhere.

I haven't ever used DuraTex. I don't know how much it will or won't hide. I do know I've seen pictures here where I can see the grain. I'd really like to not have any visible grain, except for maybe the back of the mouth I wont worry about too much. You can see the deep grain I'm talking about in the pic above. So anyway, trying my best to get everything skinned and as smooth as possible.

.
Oh! I also took a little time and put a nice rounded edge on the lower peak of panels 5 and 6. I figured curious people may reach into there for whatever reason and I'd rather they feel nothing instead of squeeze-out and sharp corners... and brads popping out. I snipped the brads that wouldn't pull through and ground the nubs down yesterday. It's nice now. Nice smooth corner and nothing to feel except the angle of panel 5.

[Seth]

Seth,

It looks like you have covered the bases on your thinking. I wouldn't use those amps, but sometimes good deals can drive the rest of the build...

I was thinking about this today and I remembered how the whole thing started. I've purchased all the drivers and plan on building 8 DR200's and in trying to keep needed rack space to a minimum, I was looking for amplifiers with more than 2 channels per 4RU. Purely out of keeping things as small and portable as possible. I found a few 4ch amps in a 1RU package, but they were more than I wanted to spend. When I saw the Ashly option and price I bought one. Was just supposed to be for the tops and I was kind of thrilled being able to do one speaker per channel for power shading and being able to EQ them individually. But then my mind started ticking away, coming up with all kinds of possibilities. With another amplifier and I'd be able to have 8 monitors in 2RU. Bought another one.

Then I started thinking about being able to do 4 tops, 4 subs, and 4 monitors on one amp... and how cool that would be (to me). A whole system on one amp is kinda cool in my book. Still wanna do it.

So, in that one amp system I'd be running subs on 30ish volts, which I'm pretty sure would be plenty for indoor shows and reasonably sized outdoor events. 4 full width T48's and 500 watts total power is likely better than I get out of my 2 18's on 800, but clean and smooth.

Then my mind went to the next step... I could totally double the subs up to 8 to keep up with 4 DR's for bigger shows. I did just buy a 2nd amp. Totally doable.

Then, I thought, why not double the sub count again and add in the other 4 DR's. Well... may as well just get 2 more amps. That way everything can have it's own channel and the whole system can be scaled to whatever the venue calls for. Small to large.

And that, is the progression of how the whole thing became a thing... And I bought 2 more amps.


I'm quite happy to back shelf the idea in favor of what I'm doing now. After more thought and discussion and listening to you, Grant, Bryan, and others I've switched the plan to T39's and SLAP's. Ultimately, for recorded content even the T48 wouldn't satisfy my needs. But, as of now, I am not a DJ. I mix live music and that's what this system is for. So, thanks to you guys.

[himhimself]

Seth, regarding duratex, there's some good videos out there on applying it. Check Leland's out. I bought a gallon of roller grade black and have coated my two tubas, all four otops, stacking brackets, the base and top platforms for my speaker stands (bases are about 2'x3'), a rack or two, and few other odds and ends. And I still have almost 1/2 gallon left. I bought a gallon of good latex paint when it was on stupid sale at Menards (like $8 from $35 or something like that), had them tint it to as black as they could get it, which is probably more of a super dark grey. After painting with that and letting it dry (only takes about 15 min), I then paint on the duratex with a crappy brush, just getting a decent fast coverage, and then I roll it with a textured roller to get a nice finish. I originally tried rolling it direct, but the texture roller didn't seem to lay it down very evenly and I had to use a lot more to cover an area. Anyway, that's what's worked well for me. Baltic birch is a lot smoother than your ply, too. Good luck.

[Bruce Weldy]

The grain has never showed through on anything I've used Duratex on. Be sure and put on a couple of coats of flat black paint first....it's cheap and provides a good base for the duratex. Get the roller from Leland. It's a special nap and works perfectly. I just roll it in the bucket to load a little on the roller then start rolling on. It doesn't even drip. Just don't try to load too much at a time.

Roll it on fast with a heavy touch to get it spread out, then go over it very lightly with the roller to smooth it out. By the time you've finished a coat on everything you are painting, you can start immediately on the next coat. Or, just wrap the roller in some plastic wrap and take a little break - it will still be wet when you come back. You won't see any grain and won't be able to tell that it was rolled on - it looks like it was sprayed.

[Seth]

Thanks for the DuraTex tips guys


Got the mouth braces all sanded and installed.

Was gonna call it a day, but thought, welllll shoot... I'm nearly there, let's get the side put on.

Got that all put together. Pretty fulfilling. But you know what would be REALLY fulfilling? Hear some noise out of it. So I slapped in all the connectors, top hat, and a 3012LF. Ran a 30 Hz sine and I have at least one good size leak around the speaker. Decided to tackle that tomorrow.

[Seth]

Man, quiet around here today. No posts to read in 24 hours! Entertain me!!! LOL



So, anyways... took yesterday off. Had some things to do mid day that just dominated the day. Today I put new gasket tape on the driver but that didn't fix the issue. Still blowing wind at the same spot it was before. Took the driver out and took a closer look with a flashlight. Ah hah! I remember worrying about the minimal overlap in that area.

I put some CA glue in the crevice from the front and put some PL in from behind. Voilà. No more leaks.

Took a little time going over some options for access cover screw placement and did my best to put them in as straight of a line as possible. I'm pretty happy with the result.

Spent the next couple hours giving it a listen. First I ran it with the DEQ/DCX/NU 4-6000 set-up. Then I became curious how different it would sound running on the Ashly ne800pe, limited to 35 volts to simulate what it would be like if I put a Basslite S2012 in it. I'll tell ya... I'm impressed.

Just need to finish sanding and painting and it should be done.